Black Widow Value?

[Gene]

Aside from a dealer like Simpson's, what might be a fair price for a Black Widow P.08 that has two fxo mags and a 1942 dated holster? Supposedly in excellent condition with 99% finish showing very minor holster wear on just a few high points. Thanks!

[leondes]

Hi Gene,

The condition of the holster plays into the total value. Assuming a holster that is near the condition of the gun, I would say (in my part of the country) between $2200 and $2800. That's assuming a full 99% gun. 99% means just minimal holster wear on the side plate, muzzle and the front of the frame with perfect grip straps.

That's my take, anyway. Hope this helps you.

Regards, Leon

[Gene]

Leon,

It definietly does. I haven't seen this pistol yet but I want to know what things to look for. I believe the seller said it's a byf41, black plastic grips, fxo mags, and a holster that is either 1941 or 1942. I know what to look for on the holster, but any hints/help on the pistol itself would be great.

Gene

[MikeP]

"Black Widow" was a selling idea to move guns which were not sellers.

Back in the 60's when good lugers were common these pistols were considered somewhat like "last ditch" lugers.

They are a little cruder than earlier pieces and were not popular with collectors.

Legend has it R Shattuck coined the term to impress novices, and the beat goes on.

Today they are just another variation and fairly unique. They should be BYF 41s with black grips and fxo mags.

Today's luger world is out of control. I have several from over the years but don't intend to put money in any more. It is very hard to find a true original these days.

I have a near mint BYF 41 that is so sloppy you could fire it with the safety engaged.

[Gene]

Mike,

Thanks a lot. I knew about the Black Widow origin but was really looking for values as I was offered one at what I think is a decent price (I'd say but don't want to jinx it)

Gene

[phild]

Black Widows

Shattuck may have used the phrase often as he did many other phrases to sell Lugers from his lists in the late 60s and 70s, but I would not be surprised if the GIs of WWII coined the nickname.

It's surprising to hear of the poor fit of the byf cited above as the many dozens of these that I have examined over the years have been fitted as well as any military Luger (which is to say very nicely) and better than most late WWI era Erfurts...which are still not bad.

I can also say that the majority of Lugers that I have found and have been able to trace back to vets, that had a pretty solid pedigree of being taken from W-SS soldiers/officers were the byf marked ones. I will say that many of these had wooden grips along with those that had black grips. I feel very sure that the grip material had no bearing on the service which these Lugers were issued to.

I do believe that the W-SS were alloted a very high percentage of Lugers from the 41 and 42 time frame, in other words...byf Lugers. There is evidence of this and there are reasons for this that I won't go in to here.

I think the black gripped byf Lugers are very sharp in looks and are certainly rarer (about 20% of byf production) than the wood grip variety. There is an SS association with the byf Lugers although this does not mean that 100% or even the majority of byf production went to the SS.

[sszza2]

Phild,

You mention that you have evidence to support your opinion that the "W-SS were allotted a very high percentage of Lugers from the '41 and '42" timeframe. Where can this evidence be found?

As an aside, I have owned for some time a byf-41 rig with 2 matched mags that belonged to a W-SS personality with capture papers from a member of the unit which essentailly captured this personalities unit. It walked into a small show in WI and was sold for the price of a standard Luger. Having said this, I have never seen evidence to support that allocations of '41 and '42 dated Lugers went at a dispropotionate rate to the W-SS.

[drew Allman]

black widow

A black widow with 2 matching mags (meaning the steel bottoms rather than bakelite) can FAIRLY sell from 2400 to 2800. However 2 fxo mags means little with a mint black widow. I can go out and pay 65 to 150 for any fxo mag and throw it in. The holster if not beat up and truly mint that could be 200 to 300. From going to a gun shows on the south east coast almost every weekend for the past two years, even dealers (who are notoriously high) had the 95% + for 1800 to 2200. I passed up from private sellers 2 mint ones at 1500 and 1600 with one fxo bakelite mag. If it had one matching mag I would have bought it. No my experience isnt far and wide, but I have seen enough to know where to go to get fair prices on more common WWII firearms. I have bought 2 black widows mint at 1350 and at 1200 both at shows. Neither of which had matching mags just one bakelite. At the past militaria show in GA. (as in 1 month ago) a man had proper black widows at 1550 and 1700 with 1 mag each. Both went home with him. If you look you can find the fair prices, if you really search you can find the steals.

[leondes]

Hi Citadelcadet,

As we all know, prices can vary greatly on most any collectible. I have a dealer friend who is quite active and I was basing my figures on what I see him sell for. Certainly, if a seller didn't know current values in the market place then items can be purchased for less than market.

If you can buy a minty "Black Widow" for under $2000 these days, then go for it and more power to you.

BTW, Third Reich P.08 magazines that do not have black bottoms have bottoms that are made of aluminum. Just thought you might like to know.

Regards, Leon

[phild]

To SSzza2: First congrats on your SS byf rig! My evidence is based partly on my own (and fellow collectors) experience of traceing down a large number of vet bring back Lugers over the last 30 to 35 years and finding that the majority of the ones that I feel had iron clad SS provonance were 41 and 42 byf Lugers. I realize that this is hardly solid documentation or scientific, but for me at least it can not be dismissed as coincidental.

I have also found several primary source references and even more secondary source references to the fact that during the period of late 1940 thru at least mid-43 (about a 2 and a half year period) the W-SS were in effect working deals with OKH (who controlled armaments allocation for all of OKW) for higher than autorized allocations of small arms. Speer (who came to the scene late on this aspect) and others mention that the Heer permitted the W-SS high allocations on some types (usually older, or phased out, or foriegn) of arms if they (W-SS) would leave the Heer alone about other types.

I believe that the W-SS recieved sizable allocations of Lugers, High Powers and to some degree Radoms during the period of roughly 1941 thru 43 (for Lugers) and beyond on the other two in exchange for not pressuring the Heer for P.38s. The Heer was really trying to standardize as much a possible and the W-SS was willing to trade standardization for quanity, at least in the area of small arms.

All of this was overcome by events by late 43 and 44 and the W-SS started getting in more quanity all of the most modern small arms anyway.

The W-SS increased divisions over 3 fold during the period of early41 thru mid 43. In addition, they essentially had to re-constitute their force twice during that same period due to massive losses in the East.
Bottom line: The W-SS had to come up with arms for about 5 to 6 hundred thousand soldiers during the course of 1941 thru 1943. This period was the peak time that byf Lugers were leaving the Mauser factory and (in the case of 1943) sitting in the arms parks and depots available for issue allocation. The Heer was only too happy to give the W-SS the Lugers (at least a high percentage) HP and Radoms in exchange for keeping most all of the P. 38 production for that period.

Anyone who has carefully studied say several thousand W-SS photos of the period has to attest that the Luger was by far and away the main 9mm carried by the W-SS and this was true right up till the end of the War.



As to the post by Citadelcadet: One can find the price of about everything all over the board depending on how hard, long and where they look. Luck plays a part as well. As to black bottom mags not being the same as numbered mags, I guess it's to each his own. I would put current value on a exc+ or better 41-42 08 holster at between $350 and $450. One can maybe find them cheaper, but I've also seen them sell for upwards of $500 and more for pigskins.

Exc condition baklite bottom FXO mags can easily bring $150 up right now.

high 90s % blued no rust or pitting byf Lugers (alone) IMO are selling in the mid 2 k range give or take $300 just depending on the day and how bad the seller wants it. A full "rig" in top shape can bring $2800 to $3300 at full retail and we know that some have sold for even close to 4k.

[GWA]

phild, your interest and determination in the area of SS allocation of byf Lugers is ceratinly admirable however the conclusions you have drawn are totally unfounded as far as P08 assignment to the Waffen SS. I am quite certain that no serious scholar of the Parabellum, whether in Europe or elsewhere, would give your theory even a nod as far as credibility goes.

[MikeP]

Note on magazines-it is the black bottomed fxo's that complete the definition of the rig.
The aluminum ones are not associated with the "Black Widow" hype/definition/mystique.

Agree on the noncredibility of the ss issue. I have been casually accumulating lugers for over 45 years and never heard that'n.

95% of souvenier lugers were taken from piles of surrendered weapons. My dad and most of his friends were ETO vets and I spent much of my youth hounding these guys for thir stuff and stories.

[phild]

phild, your interest and determination in the area of SS allocation of byf Lugers is ceratinly admirable however the conclusions you have drawn are totally unfounded as far as P08 assignment to the Waffen SS. I am quite certain that no serious scholar of the Parabellum, whether in Europe or elsewhere, would give your theory even a nod as far as credibility goes.

I have no scholarly source information that will verify that oversize allotmnets of Lugers, much less Black Widow Lugers went to the W-SS during the 41-43 timeframe. In that you are correct.

Everything else that I stated in my above post however, is very well documented fact. This includes the high proportion of P.08s carried by W-SS troops and officers.

I don't really consider my points to consitute a theory, but rather more of a connect the dots type of approach. SInce about 1972/73 I have been running down vet acquisitions and I have found around 12 Lugers (only a couple of these were I able to obtain for my collection) that I believe were solid W-SS origin captured Lugers. By this I mean the place, date and unit of the vet checked out and in many cases there were other items (SS) taken with the Lugers and the stories were simply to exact and detailed to make up and in some case I just knew for a fact that the vet was not lying! Now I realize that this is not solid science, but sometimes even collectors must admit that Ducks look a lot like Ducks!

Out of these 12 Lugers that met the above criteria, 8 of them were byf Lugers. Six of those were the so-called Black Widows.

I have talked to other collectors who have expressed similar experience, of course I was not with them so again there is some trust involved.

The SS went from 4 divisons in late 1940 to over 35 by mid/late 1944. It's true that some of these last divisions were nominal in strength, but it is also true the most of the first 15 divisons were re-built and re-equiped at least twice and sometimes 4 times. Do the math and look at the photos that show about 2 out of every 3 9mm pistol holster worn by SS personnel as being that of a Luger.

[Sirius9024]

Phild,
I like your theory, I don't believe it, but it seems to have some merit.Very interesting.

[sszza2]

Phild,

Thanks for your response. A couple comments.

I was indeed very fortunate to obtain my byf41. At the time of its purchase it was sold and bought just as a very nice matching Luger with 2 matched mags, '41 dated faintly named and numbered holster and capture papers listing all items. The provenance was developed only after months of research and came from several sources which in sum are difficult to refute. Central among the evidence are the capture papers which indicate the owner as well as the unit he was in. Copies of the after action reports from Ft. Knox which I subsequently obtained made it clear that this unit was in the same place, at the same time, that the personality surrendered. Also very important is that many other collectors and dealers were present when this walked into the show and know the circumstances of its sale and my purchase. Bottom line was no one knew. It remains my luckiest find of all time.

I am very sorry to say that unless supported by other evidence I am reticent to accept many vet stories about where/how/from whom they captured things. I cannot tell you how many pistols I have owned that the vets assured were captured from generals, SS officers, or other glamorous sources. Also, the quantity of non-sniper type rifles captured from snipers is almost immeasurable. Bottom line is that in vet dealings I always buy the item not the story. I only ask about the story after the deal is made.

The research of P-08 ownership/allocation to the SS is similar to that of Gew98 rework ownership/allocation to the SS. Everyone who has studied pre and early war W-SS photos has found a proliferation of full length Gew98 reworks. However, absent SS specific markings, a common Gew98 rework cannot be considered SS. Still IMO it is likely that many unmarked Gew98 reworks were indeed used by the W-SS. My point is that both assumptions are based on very circumstantial evidence. In the case of the black widows, I believe that some unsavory dealers and collectors have propagated such myths to drive prices.

I hope someday many of the theories about SS owned weapons can be positively cleared up. But then what would us nuts have to talk about?

Scott