SS Totenkopf-Marked M712 Schnellfeuer

[sszza2]

Mg34Gunner makes a good point. We are indeed "quibbling about the markings" on an admittedly rare item. But then researchers and collectors of all types of items are prone to such "quibbling" as it directly effects overall authenticity and value. I would hazard to guess that a period original SS marked M712 commands a higher price than a standard M712. Perhaps something like the difference between a '67 Corvette with 435HP vs. L88 450. If you understand the historical significance and value difference between these two items then you should appreciate why we are "quibbling". As always, the devil is in the details. Personally, I think it would be great if the subject M712 was proven to be a legitimate SS marked item!

[Sirius9024]

I love the weapons and the fact you have to is just awesome. I can't comment on the DSH, as I know Scott has extensive research in this area. It is not my area and I rely heavily on Scott's opinion.
The only concern or question I have is the single Eagle proof. I would like to see a clearer/close-up photo of that Eagle. I deal with Lugers and 98k weapons. To me the Eagle looks very large and double stamped. I have seen larger Eagles on 98k barrels and small Eagles on Lugers, but not to the size that is on your weapon. Also there is no Eagle over N or Eagle over 135. I would think that if the weapon was tested and inspected it would have a firing test proof. Maybe the SS just used a single Eagle over nothing, I don't know, Scott any idea?
I'm not stirring the pot just trying to learn something new, in case I ever to sell my kid to buy it from you Gary.
Brian

[Gary Cain]

Harry,

You have to remember that the high price of transferables is a fairly recent phenomena. 15 years ago the Schnell was worth less than a nice standard C96. People would do anything to make one more desireable and thus generate a higher price.


Gary

Point taken. However, it seems to me that bogus markings are typically added to fairly common items in an effort to boost thier value.

A transferable (this is the key word here) Schnellfeuer is a very very rare bird indeed in the US. Most of the relatively few Schnells in the country are dealer samples. I understand that many of our members here are not in the US and so are probably not well versed in our byzantine weapons laws and regulations so perhaps it would be well to clarify that.

My point is, why would anyone apply bogus markings to a gun that is already worth the price of a new Cadillac? it just doesn't make sense to me. And yes, even 25 years ago a transferable Schnell would have fetched a very hefty price.

It would be interesting to do a Freedom of Information Act request to see exactly when it was registered........

Not trying to be contentious here, guys please understand that......

Harry

[captainhoot]

Hey Guys.

Thanks for all the discussion about this weapon.
I spoke to my examiner at the NFA Branch of BATF about this weapon
today. Here is what I found out:
This weapons' first registration was during the amesty in Nov. 1968.
NO dealers have ever owned this weapon, just individuals. There were
no mention of any markings (sometimes these may be mentioned), it was
listed with wooden holster. The original manufactuer is listed as Mauser
Oberndorf, Germany.
The person whom registred it had it for approx. one year prior to the amnesty (according to what I'm told by NFA.)
It least this disproves the "Chinese copy" theory that was proposed.
I could do a "Freedom of Information Act" search, but I'm not sure, if anything, that would add to our search about the marking(s).
Any thoughts from anyone ???
Thanks.

-Andrew

[Gary Cain]

Hi Andrew,

One item that concerns me is the assertion from the ATF that the prior owner had it for one year prior to the amnesty. First off, how do they know? That was not a question that was asked and there is no place on the paperwork for it. Secondly, if they knew that why didn't they arrest the one who had it as it was a felony to posses? That.... is not a comforting response.

Gary

Hey Guys.

Thanks for all the discussion about this weapon.
I spoke to my examiner at the NFA Branch of BATF about this weapon
today. Here is what I found out:
This weapons' first registration was during the amesty in Nov. 1968.
NO dealers have ever owned this weapon, just individuals. There were
no mention of any markings (sometimes these may be mentioned), it was
listed with wooden holster. The original manufactuer is listed as Mauser
Oberndorf, Germany.
The person whom registred it had it for approx. one year prior to the amnesty (according to what I'm told by NFA.)
It least this disproves the "Chinese copy" theory that was proposed.
I could do a "Freedom of Information Act" search, but I'm not sure, if anything, that would add to our search about the marking(s).
Any thoughts from anyone ???
Thanks.

-Andrew

[captainhoot]

Gary.

I'm not sure how he was able to tell me that, looking on his computer.
he could not tell me a whole lot of information, without violating privacy
act issues. That puzzles me as well. I'm not at all familiar with the Amnesty paperwork, so I assumed there was some entry to that effect.
I'll probably do the full paperwork history on this one to find out all the
particulars.....
Thanks.

-Andrew

[Ranger-LT]

Schnellfeuers are not rare weapons, only rare in the U.S. I know a gentleman who has a whole warehouse full of them in China and is just waiting for the ban to be lifted so he can import them to the U.S. as parts kits. Even in Canada, a deactivated Schnellfeuer with the chamber drilled out is only $500.

For collector/researchers of weapons, the markings are everything. They tell where that weapon has been and served. In this case, it changes a commercial pistol into a rare piece used by the most famous and infamous military organizaiton in history, so yes the markings do mean a lot.

Back to the discussion of this piece. The test fire proof (not waffenamt) does not look like an authentic test fire proof. Just pick up any WWII era German pistol and look at its test fire proof and compare it to this one. That being said, if the test fire proof is not right, then why would anyone believe that the totenkopf was legitimate.

I know of a well known member of the "cottage industry" who I'm told recently sold a totenkopf marked schnellfeuer. Andrew, if you are interested please contact me persoanlly and maybe we can figure out if this is the man you aquired your pistol from. Thanks, Ryan

[captainhoot]

Ryan.

Thanks for that, but I can tell you without a doubt that the previous owner of this particular peice, is now deceased. That is the only reason
this weapon was sold. This fact is not up for debate. It had been in his possession for 5+ years prior to his death. This was verified by BATF examiner as well via telephone conversation.
We could go on speculating about the authencity of the markings until
the 2nd coming of Christ, and still not have anything to hang out hats
on..........
That's the only thing I'm interested in; Evidenced-based discussions, not
speculations about what it looks like to you, based on comparing A to Z... thanks.
-Andrew

[bmg17a1]

Generally, FOIA requests are a complete set of copies of paperwork records in the NFRTR , but records of vintage MGs can be missing some of the early documentation, even including record of initial registration. For many years after 1934, well into the post-war years, documentation of the registration of an MG were carelessly handled by treasury with the complete loss of many records of registration and transfers. MGs show up in estates, closets , attics and many different place for which no paperwork is known to exist, but with diligence and craft, it is possible to determine if the serial is in the NFRTR. Sometimes they are registered, but finding the name of the registrant is the extremely difficult part since the vast majority of these guns are in the hands of owners many times removed from the original family or registrant, introducing a serious legal situation.
A great deal of very relevant in useful info can be determined from the FOIA paperwork copies. In response to the question below about how it can reveal the length an item was in the possession of a particular individual or other registrant, the date time line between transfers between registrants, and types of transfers will provide this info. All personal information is redacted from the copies by blackout, but form numbers and types, date of initial submission for registration and subsequent transfers, status of all registrants subsequent to initial registration, specifications and other details of firearm identification, errors in ID and serial number on original registration application, changes in ID, serial number, and miscellaneous info on the forms through successive transfers, and various other kinds of info can be gleaned from the copies.
FOIA info is especially relevant and important to prove that a vintage MG was actually registered correctly by date of initial registration for C+R status for transfer and to reveal fraudulent registrations of non-C+R MGs as C+R. Proof that an MG identified as a reactivated registered DEWAT can be secured by the FOIA process, for instance. There is other valuable info that is contained in the FOIA copies as well.
Hope this helps……

Bob Naess