Vet buy P38

[G May]

Hi to all, Picked this little jewel up the other day. A cyq P38 with matching #'s. It's about 98% blue with mint bore. Has nice colored sawdust particles in grips. Would the serial # 9055 be a 43 or 44 manufacture date? My reference states a 1st variation and standard variation for Spreewerke military but doesn't go into any detail about the difference, so which is this? It also has "f" stamped and was wondering what that was. It came with a sweet P38 holster marked ros 1944 with eagle WaA159. Thanks for response. G May

[Matt Weber]

This P38 that you have is definately a 1943 manufacture. The "f" stamp is actually part of the serial number, and would indicate the time of manufacture for this piece. Spreewerke didn't get through the alphabet until December 1944, so I would estimate that this pistol was made around July or August 1943.
A 1944 dated holster would go very well with this gun, and was probably issued with one.
Check the maker code on your holster again. It is probably an "fos", since there is no such code as "ros".
"fos" is the maker code for Karl Schneider.

A very nice looking piece. Can you post pics of the holster as well? Please include the maker mark so I can confirm the maker for you if it isn't "fos".

Matt

[G May]

holster

Hi Matt, Here is a close up of maker mark. it's a definite lower case "ros". I can get a closer shot yet if this isn't sufficient. Thank you for your input. G May

[Matt Weber]

G May,

Thank you for the excellent pics! Now I am puzzled?
It does look like "ros" rather than "fos".

I have one of the very few original copies of the "Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Minition und Gerat". This is the list of the maker codes of the Heereswaffenamt!
There is no such maker code of "ros" listed in here.
In fact the letter code system was issued to manufacturers based on dates. For example, all the maker codes between "aaa" through "zzz" were issued in November 1940. "baa"-"bzz" were issued in February 1941, and so on. The very last maker codes issued was in October 1944 and that was for "oaa"-"ozz".
The last maker code issued was "ozz". Therfore they didn't even get to the "raa"-"rzz" set of codes yet.

However, several makers did use different code letters, and some makers even changed code letters later in the war. The fact that Mauser, Obendorf used the code "svw" late in the war proves that they did used letter codes past what the Heereswaffenamt had issued.
I believe this is what happened with this maker code.
I can't seem to find the WaA150 code? If you find out what maker this inspectors' number was assigned to, then you will be able to find out the maker of this holster. I believe that once you find out the maker, you will find out that they did use different code letters, possibly earlier in the war.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. I would definately like to know the maker of this holster though! Let me know if you find out!
Your rig definately does look great though!

Matt

[G May]

Code

Hi Matt, I certainly appreciate your effort at this manufacturer code. I adjusted some settings on the scanner because the last photo did not show the faint center of the "9". It is WaA 159 and hope this photo shows a little better. The "ros" is a little better too. Thank you. G May

[Matt Weber]

G May,

Well, that makes all the difference in the world! No wonder I couldn't find "WaA150"?

The number "WaA159" is for the firm of "E.G. Leuner, Bautzen, Humboldstr."
They made a lot of P38 holsters during the war! Most of their holsters will be marked with thier assigned code, "bla".
This maker had a unique way of inscribing the "P38" into the back of thier holsters, and yours is correct. I can't believe I missed that earlier? That should've told me right away that this was a "bla" holster!

I have seen several "bla" marked P38 holsters that are dated 1944, so perhaps this change of code was late in that year?

Anyhow, I'm glad we solved that mystery! Good work my friend!

Matt

[Matt Weber]

Below I pictured another unique P38 holster maker. This maker is "bml". You can always spot a "bml" hardshell holster just by looking at the front. They are the only maker that set thier closure strap at a slight angle, rather than straight up and down.
Pretty cool huh?

Matt

[Matt Weber]

Now compare that one with this one. This one is a standard one, that is straight up and down. The maker on this one is "gxy".

Matt

[Brian M]

Matt, ros, the late war code change for bla (E.G.Leuner, Bautzen, WaA159)was a common leather goods manufacturer for the HeeresWaffenamt. it surprises me you didn't know this, especially being a P-38 afficianado.

[Matt Weber]

Brian,

Thanks for repeating what I stated above. I know "bla" is a common maker of leather goods. However, as stated "ros" is a very late war code change for this maker, and is seldome seen.

If you read through the thread you will see that I didn't notice the P38 style of markings right away, and I thought the the holster was marked "WaA150" , and didn't know that the holster was marked "WaA159". As soon as I knew this, I figured it out very quickly. Thanks for your help though.

Matt

PS- Let me just state this also. Yes, I do collect P38s, however this doesn't make me an expert on every leather manufacturer during the war! (Nor do I claim to be an expert on P38s either).
What knowledge I do have on both of these subjects, I am willing to share, and help others. That is what this forum is for.

[DaveJ]

I am wondering what nice p38s are going for. I am trying to figure out a fair price, not dealer ,but collector purchase. Also, how about nice lugers, 99% blue with matching numbers on clip also. I have not been to any shows in the past several years, been in Kodiak,Alaska. A friend of the family passed away suddenly and left a large collection of p38s and lugers ( a couple of the black widows too). I want to give my friend's widow a fair estimate of the values. I know that all is subjective, but any ball park figure would really help.
Thanks
Dave J

[Nimble1]

Luger Forum

Go to www.lugerforum.com and talk to the guys there. Very nice guys and no one knows Lugers better.

[DaveJ]

Thanks,
I will check it out,
Dave

[Brian M]

Matt, I did not mean my post to be a personal attack on you as it seems you have taken it. your reply is very defensive.

I have read many of your posts on this forum, and although I wouldn't consider you an "expert", you do seem to have an interest and appreciation for P-38's and a good bit of knowledge about them. it just honestly surprised me that you did not previously know about the code change to ros. I have seen everything from y-straps, to holsters, to G43 pouches, and even own a G43 sling marked ros.
as a side, do not always rely on books for information on items such as codes, especially the later war code changes present a problem there. a lot gets left out in the editing process, and books become very quickly dated, especially in the modern world of collector forums and communities on the internet.
somewhere on this forum, I think a while ago I posted some links to some very very good online resources of German codes and proofmarks.
Patrice Colemant's site is a particularly good one... please correct me if I didn't post the links here, and I will, they are a wonderful asset, and often help me when I run across something unfamiliar.
the links can also be found on the links page of my website.
Brian

[Matt Weber]

Brain,
You may not have meant it to be a personel attack at me, but if you read through you post, it certainly sounds like one. Especially since, your post was after the fact that the puzzle was already solved!
However, no offense taken.
I don't collect those other items that you mentioned, so I wouldn't know anything about them.

As for books, the book I was using was an original copy of the Heereswaffenamt list of codes. This contains all the codes that were issued to manufacturers' during the war. There are only about 100 of these that are known to exist in the world today.
The alpha codes were halted in October 1944 with the final code being "ozz". There was no listing for "ros", meaning that the Heereswaffenamt did not issue this code for this maker.

Therfore, not having a reference, not having an example in my hands, and mistaking the WaA markings, I wasn't able to identify this maker right away.
I don't have all the alpha codes memorized in my head, therefore reference material is a must for these.

Please post the links to the sites that you mentioned. I would definately like to check them out! Thanks!

Matt