K98 snipers, Values? and how to spot fakes?

[Matt Weber]

I mentioned this on another thread, and I noticed that Dez and others might be interested, so I thought I would start a new thread on it. Perhaps Tankdriver and/or others who collect snipers can help us out!

I was looking to get a K98 sniper for my collection. However, I am very aware of the tons of fake snipers out there!moremad
I was wondering if there were any advise, or tips on how to spot some of these fakes?

Also I was wondering if anyone could give me any accurate current market prices for these snipers: ( I haven't been paying attention to prices on these, since I was nervious about buying, and I know prices have risen dramatically lately)
1. Short side rail
2. Long side rail
3. low turret mount
4. high turret mount
5. ZF-41 sniper
6. single claw mount
7. double claw mount

For prices please list them as "all matching rifle and scope" or "matching rifle, with mis-matched scope" or "mis-matched rifle with mis-matched scope", also include if the rifle is import marked or not! Condition of the rifle, lets' say is 90%, with excellent bore, and optics are excellent.

Matt

[david w]

Prices are so fluid that even estimates are hard to come by.Easy to fake a Zf-41,a short side rail or a early arsenal converted low turret.The lack of additional proofs on these pieces and the ready availability of quality bases and mounts make identifying a good quality fake extremely difficult.Conversely a long side rail(LSR) with the special thick walled receiver is the most difficult to fake.I saw one not too long ago in the $7000.00 range and it was right in all respects.

[Willi Z.]

Not trying to rain on the parade here, but what you are asking is next to impossible. Impossible to keep up with the prices on original snipers....in the matching category (even if the scope isn't matched to the rifle). Short side rails, low turrets and double claw SS rifles are so damn rare most will never see one..... The most common is a zf41.......then a high turret and then a long side rail and a single claw bnz4. I agree that the long side rail is the toughest to fake and I like them the most. Messed with snipers are so common now....while one seldom encounters a correct one.....they sell with phone calls....and few argue with the asking price.

WZ

[david w]

You are completely correct every sniper in my collection has someone in line waiting for me to tire of my hobby,die,divorce or go bankrupt.IF I WERE GOING TO INVEST MY MONEY TODAY A CORRECT LONGSIDE RAIL WITH SCOPE WOULD BE MY CHOICE.And I certainly would not listen to any excuses about why it wasn't by the book in assembly,fit or function.
David

[Matt Weber]

Thank for your advise guys. I know that there are a ton of fakes out there. However, know that they are there, and spotting them are two different things. I wasn't going to even look for a ZF41. I have seen fakes of these that are flawless!
I do like the long side rails with the thick wall recievers build by "bcd" and Sauer (ce).
What about the turret mounts and the single claw mounts? Are these easy to fake, and how can you spot them?


Matt

PS- can you guys posts pics of any of your snipers for us?

[Brian M]

I agree with Hauptmann Willi and DWD completely.
the LSR on the thick wall reciever is the way to go. never buy anything without the ability to handle and disassemble first, i.e. locally not from across the country. also, buy from a notable, respected, and familiar collector instead of someone who you don't know or never heard of. there are more fake zf41 and K43 rigs than anything else. stay away from "SS" guns, too.
Brian

[Dez H]

Are there any good books that deal pacifically with German sniper rifles?
e.g. describe different scopes, rifles etc..


Thanks

[Willi Z.]

The Senich book on German snipers is still ok. But, the ones to get are the ones by Collector Grade Publications. One is on 98k sniper variations and another on the G/K43. Both of those are "must haves" for sniper collectors.

Willi

[Hauptmann]

The "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" series also has a volume dealing specifically with K-98k Snipers and their variations. It too, is a must have if you are going to dive in deep with collecting WWII German sniper rifles. It can save you a ton of $$$. In fact, it is a good idea to have both the sniper and non sniper volumes so that you can do a complete inspection of the rifle first, then the mounts, then the bases, then the rings, and finally the scope itself. This is especially important when "finding" that "all matching" sniper rifle. Look for ANY flat spots where rifle numbers are stamped. If it even remotely looks flat where it should be rounded, it has probably been ground down, 'new matching numbers' re-stamped, and reblued.

Just an FYI, Sarco, Inc has been making very good reproductions of just about all the K-98k sniper variation scopes mounts and bases. They have been making them for a number of years. I believe they have closely copied the short-side rail, long-side rail, claw mounts, and ZF-4 mounts. Some of the stuff is REALLY close, especially their 'newer' stuff. You really have to give it a double take. They are even stamped with acceptance and maker's marks.

Get these books and do your homework first. It will go a very long way to helping you to spot the fakes and from keeping you from making big $$$ mistakes.

[david w]

SARCO has the best repo mounts and bases around,the screws are metric,the parts interchange with original.Ihave held their products in my hands,having visited the business prior to Glen DeRuiter's death. the only shortfall is the finish is not up to German standards as far as polish is concerned.They began importing these 5 years ago.The most sinister of their products are thr original prewar bases and mounts taken from Argentine model 1909 sniper rifles these are original German manufacture and if properly mounted ,on a early 1939-1941 gun,are impossible to detect.LET THE BUYER BEWARE.

[Matt Weber]

Thanks for the tips David. I have seen some of the SARCO stuff, and it does look good. Any advise on spotting these though?

I do have both the "Backbone" books, and agree that they are very good. However, neither of these books, nor any other that I know of, show you how to spot fakes. Also you must remember that the fakers have all of these books as well, and know what they are doing.

I was recently offered a K98 sniper. It is a "bnz"(probably 44, but no date or "bnz" on reciever because of the front mount), single claw mount. All matching, in about 95%. Scope is a "bmj", and optics are excellent. Mount matches scope. Everything appears to be good on this thing. Is there any advise on this gun? What would be a good price on it?

Matt

[david w]

Matt, based on what I have personally seen and handled over the years the bnz single claw rifles that I truly believe correct are in the b,c,d suffix range of 1944 series production.THE SINGLE CLAW VERSION IS EASY TO FAKE REQUIRING MINIMUM GUNSMITHING SKILLS,SARCO BASES WITH MOUNTS AND A bmj CODED SCOPE. What was the asking price?

[tankdriver]

Re: K98 snipers, Values? and how to spot fakes?

Originally posted by Matt Weber
I mentioned this on another thread, and I noticed that Dez and others might be interested, so I thought I would start a new thread on it. Perhaps Tankdriver and/or others who collect snipers can help us out!
Matt

Sorry about not helping out on this post I have been out of town for work. You know if I did not like the "Finer" things in life, like food, housing, a car.... I could spend a lot more time on my hobby....

Anyway in my opinion, Law's books have several errors in them. Not to put him down, no one is perfect. Even Senich's is questioned by some. Ball's also has a couple of errors. So do not count on them being the Bible.

On the mounts form Sarco, I know the guy who makes them and he always does them just a little incorrectly so if you know the stuff you can tell they are not correct.

One of the best ways to learn is to handle everyone you can find. Go to every show that has a chance of having them. Look at them, do the just look wrong? Like excellent finish on scope and mount and so-so finish on gun or just the reverse? Or scope and mount with just edges worn like a peice of steel wool rubbed on edges to make them look worn, while rest of mount is perfect. Watch for wear patterns, I just sold a import marked ZF41 on AA. The wear pattern on the bottom matched both mount and barrel. I know of no way anyone could fake this pattern of wear.


Know the dates that various mounts were used. Example. At Louisville last year a guy had a 1941 short side rail with a type 3 short side rail mount, which was not used till 1943. This is where the books will help.

On high Turrets and Low Turrets watch for the solder under the mounts. If you do not see any solder, it is probably fake, but at the same time, they did not just slop it on either. If it is a early turret and the rest of the gun was well made the solder should look about the same. A late war with the slopiness of the gun to match the solder would also have the same craftsmanship.

The problem with telling what is incorrect is you help the fakers out. Anything made by man can be made again. So everytime you point out what is incorrect, the next time that is corrected. Remember the early repo medals and how bad they were? Look at some of the really good ones out there now. Even on this board there are dicusssions if they are real or not. So there is a fine line to walk between hepling out collectors and helping out fakers.

Hope this helps and just does not confuss everyone.

[Matt Weber]

Thank you very much
Tankdriver!! Thank information was very helpfull to me. I will definately keep those tips in mind when looking for snipers.

I was at the Louisville show last year, and there was one guy (can't remember name? but he was a short, and kind of stocky middle aged man). He had a table full of snipers (k98s, G43s, even a G41!). I began looking at a few of these, when my friend CJ, came up to look at them with me, and informed me that this guy was an expert faker of German snipers!moremad
I didn't buy any of course, but probably should have paid more attention and looked all of them over really good like you said. (but I didn't think of it at the time?! ) If I see that guy again, I'll definately look through his stuff with a fine tooth comb!

David, the asking price on the single claw "bnz 44" was $4,000 I believe? Serial number was in the "c" suffix range! I'll try to email you some pics!

Matt

[david w]

Matt ,something is wrong.A matching bnz single claw should bring $7000.OO or more depending on overall condition,unless the owner is desperate for money or crazy or both.That is usually not the case,be exceedingly cautious.