Banner Luger......?

[stevezz1]

Hi Guys,
I have just seen this on a dealer site.
http://www.deactivated-guns.co.uk/detail/police_PO8.htm
I had never heard of one so i checked Jan Still's book and there are no '42 date Banners listed. The only ones mentioned are 1938 - 1940 and '41.
Shame there are no shots of the mag serial numbers, as they are supposed to match. I thought maybe this might be a forced match item.
Has anyone seen one of these..........?

Steve.

[ottomaton]

Deactivated WWII German Mauser Banner 1942 PO8

There is a factual error in the description. The gun is marked 42, which I believe has nothing to do with the year 1942, but rather with Mauser military guns made in the 1930's. This leads me to believe that the guy is speaking out his backside, a severe warning sign, IMHO, when judging a dealer.

The other thing is that I've never seen a Black Widow with a silvered magazine. He further claims that there are 10,000 produced, but some comparatively rare guns like the "41-42" had similar size runs and everybody knows all about that variation.

You probably know much, much more about Lugers than I, but I think the guy is making stuff up as he goes along, and I wouldn't do business with someone I couldn't trust.

[ottomaton]

He is also offering "Samuel Cody's" Borchart but offers nothing whatsoever in the way of provenance that it actually belonged to Cody, beyond the claim that it was presented at acution by his family, a practice which is generally considered of dubious professional ethics, at least among American firearms dealers.

[GWA]

It is a very legitimate 1942 Banner Mauser P08. The only odd point about it is that one would expect to see a commercial proof on the left side of the receiver above the serial number. This proof would be in the form of an Eagle/L/N or U. The "L" proof would indicate police use. This pistol has military proofs on the right side as one would see with a "byf" marked contract P08 of the same year. These military acceptance marks may push the pistol into the arena of "rare" examples. I have no reference material available to me right now so I can go no further.

The serial number "1774" should have a "w" suffix under the stamping on the front frame.

[stevezz1]

It is a very legitimate 1942 Banner Mauser P08. The only odd point about it is that one would expect to see a commercial proof on the left side of the receiver above the serial number. This proof would be in the form of an Eagle/L/N or U. The "L" proof would indicate police use. This pistol has military proofs on the right side as one would see with a "byf" marked contract P08 of the same year. These military acceptance marks may push the pistol into the arena of "rare" examples. I have no reference material available to me right now so I can go no further.

The serial number "1774" should have a "w" suffix under the stamping on the front frame.

Hi GWA,
This is not a Police issue Luger, it has military proofs on the r/h reciever.
Police Lugers were marked E/K - E/F - E/C or E/L instead of the military proofs with C/U on the left of the reciever up to April 1940, thereafter they were marked E/N.
The only thing i can think of is that this, and others, were assembled from Police parts for the Army and dated '42.
According to Jan Still's book the only Army banner dates are 1938 - 1940 and '41.
Here is the E/F proof on my 1939 Police Banner.

Steve.

[GWA]

Steve, I am not sure that I know what you are trying to present with the large photo of the right side little eagle/F. The photos of the pistol offered in your first posting show a pistol with the full swath of military acceptance marks.

[GWA]

Steve, I am not sure that I know what you are trying to present with the large photo of the right side little eagle/F. The photos of the pistol offered in your first posting show a pistol with the full swath of military acceptance marks.

[Jarrid Marsh]

The Mauser banners were police guns, Mine was an E/L, there were 2 digit chamber dates as I remember, but I dont like the look of this one. I did get one 42 years ago and it was horrible. But not as ugly as that gun. I think its been worked.

Black widows can have aluminum based mags, based on standard production, as the only thing that makes the Black widow a black widow is the FXO mag and black plastic grips, its a nickname.

I would not be looking to buy this paperweight though.

J

[stevezz1]

Sorry GWA, i was just illustrating the the positioning of the Police proof marks on the r/h side of the reciever of a Luger that i have, you mentioned earlier that they were on the l/h side.

Steve.

[stevezz1]

A reply from one of the Luger forums..........
"
Steve,
You probably couldn't find one in Jan's books, because a 42 dated military Banner with E135 proofs didn't likely exist. There were military Banners in the 177Xx serial number range like this pistol, but they were proofed E655 and were not dated later than 41 to the best of my knowledge. I use Costanzo as a reference concerning Banner production and he indicates that there were not any Banners produced for the military in 1942. There are some for real Banner experts on this Forum and hopefully they will add to this post.
Lyn"

Looks like this one is made up from odds and ends.............

Steve.