Opinions on Kriegsmarine K98k

[Alex W.]

Bodes,

hm, IF this is really not the original stock for this rifle, how come it has the same serial number ??
I also noticed that the lower case suffix is an M on the stock and a K on the receiver.
Is it possible that the original stock was damaged in combat and the stock got replaced and was re-numberd ?

[bodes]

Roc, The rifle is nearly 70 years old....There's always a chance the original stock was "duffle cut" and/or sporterized......Than somebody may have placed another piece of wood on it and merely forced serial # matched it to the rest of the weapon......And as for the 'k' I believe that's located on the rear sight......That may actually signifiy the sight is intended for use on the K98k configuration only.....They marked some of the early stocks the same way (with a K).....Just out of curiousity, is the stock serial #'d internally? (under handguard and in barrel channel on buttstock)....Bodes

[nilles]

K98

Hi Bodes, Roc,

The symbol "double W topped by an F" on one of the first pics is
the symbol of weapons that were sold by Frankonia, a large german
weapon dealer, also selling hunting stuff, clothes and other equipment.

In fact Frankonia buys large amounts of rifles, refreshs them in their own armory and sells them via their cataloge or other means (web, etc)

Maybe this helps.

Brgds

Paul

[bodes]

Thanks Nilles, That perhaps also explains the worn black paint-like finish on the metal.....Bodes

[Frogprince]

While the stock could always be a period field armorers replacement. In the earlier years the Germans periodically overhauled individual weapons (ie: small arms - arsenal repaired/rebuilt). That might account for some of its seeming irregularities. I had an early 98K bayonet that had been renumbered internally 4 times. Numbered when it was made and each time it was overhauled - sometimes using parts from other bayonets.

And while there is no question that it was a rifle belonging to the Wehrmacht that does not mean it stayed one for its entire lifetime. Some (original German) ex-Romanian 98k rifles that were imported into the U.S. had harder lives than this one. But the traces of the black paint make me think that perhaps this example was left in Norway when the Germans left. And stayed in service there until it was no longer needed before gong into storage.

No guarantees as to its original provenance. Just some random thoughts that would be my first impressions if I encountered a similar example. FP

[Alex W.]

Bodes,
how can I take a look at the internal serial #´s ? Is there a guide on how I can take it apart so I can check ?

Nilles,
Thanks for that info !! I know Frankionia, actually they do have a shop down town. I never knew they did stamp their rifles.

Frogprince,
True, it's probably hard to figure out if this was a field repair at some point of the war... I do think this is totally possible... but than again, I don't know too much about rifles anyway. In what connection do you see the traces of black paint with norway ?


Alex

[Frogprince]

Alex, First lets make that “going” into storage. (Typing skills are not one of my strong points.) Norway had a lot of leftover war materials that were left there when the Germans surrendered. I have seen some fairly nice ex-Wehrmacht items come out of Norway. And some that were very, very, used. On some I have seen traces of black paint - but not all of them.

Actually it could be a number of other countries that acquired German arms at the end of WWII. If it was my rifle and Frankionia was close by: I think that I would ask them directly were they got the rifles. Sometimes importers or their staffs don’t know where they got what they are selling. But I remember one interesting followup I had with an importer which explained why a 60 plus year old rifle was in new condition. (Good Luck if you decide to give it a shot at trying to get some more information.) Regards, FP

[Alex W.]

Alex, First lets make that “going” into storage. (Typing skills are not one of my strong points.) Norway had a lot of leftover war materials that were left there when the Germans surrendered. I have seen some fairly nice ex-Wehrmacht items come out of Norway. And some that were very, very, used. On some I have seen traces of black paint - but not all of them.

Actually it could be a number of other countries that acquired German arms at the end of WWII. If it was my rifle and Frankionia was close by: I think that I would ask them directly were they got the rifles. Sometimes importers or their staffs don’t know where they got what they are selling. But I remember one interesting followup I had with an importer which explained why a 60 plus year old rifle was in new condition. (Good Luck if you decide to give it a shot at trying to get some more information.) Regards, FP

Frogprince,
thanks for the info. Do you think the traces of black paint is only found on K98k's out of Norway, or did I get that wrong ? Maybe some barrels were painted that way from factory ? I'm not 100% sure but didn't all K98k out of Norway receive a KM stamp ?
I would really like to know more about the black traces on the barrel. Is this seen often ? Is this a known practice or is it a typical post war practice ?
I was under the impression that this particular rifle didn't have another life after the war, until it got converted in the late 1970's (the part about the conversion is what the previous owner told me). Whether this is the truth or not, I can't tell but it makes some sense to me since it has no foreign stamps at all. Also, it’s not known were it was between 1945 and day it was bought by frankonia. Probably in some West-German depot ??
Is it also possible that a private owner had this K98k and just had it converted via frankonia ? Would they also add their stamp in that case ?
I might really give Frankonia a call on Monday and who knows, maybe they can help me out. If the rifle was bought by the previous owner in the late 1970's it's probably going to be very hard to find out were they originally got these rifles from, since it’s a long time ago.

[P08]

Your serial number suffix is an m. So the m that you see on the stock under the serial is the serial number suffix and not a Kriegsmarine mark.

However the Kriegsmarine did indeed have K98k's. I have for example a K98k ammo pouch which is marked with an eagle over swastika and an m underneath.

The BKA marking could stand for Bundes Kriminal Amt (not sure just a guess). The mark beside it is the symbol of Waffen Frankonia, a large weapons dealer in Germany. When a weapon is "legalised" in Germany the dealer doing it has to put his stamp on the weapon. In this case that's Waffen Frankonia. The dealer mark has nothing to do with deactivation. You find it on many functional weapons as well.

Regarding the worn appearance you have to remember that WWII weapons can have been handled quite a lot during the war (without actually seeing any combat ie guard duty etc.) plus they might have been handled after the war as well. In addition to that bad storage can contribute to a worn appearance.

[bodes]

[quote=Roc]Bodes,
how can I take a look at the internal serial #******180;s ? Is there a guide on how I can take it apart so I can check ?


Roc, Taking a K98k apart is rather simple......To remove the handguard, push on the bandspring (flat metal piece between the two barrel bands)....Push hard enough to get the "nipple" on the muzzle of the bandspring end to go low enough to slide the muzzle-end band towards the muzzle......When you have done this, the bandspring will come out.....Then the other band will slide towards the muzzle....When you've done this, carefully slide the handguard towards the muzzle.....Don't squeeze too hard as you can easily cause the handguard to split in two.....As for removing the buttstock, there are 2 major screws which hold on the floorplate/triggerguard.....Remove the smaller, locking screws.....With the bolt out of the rifle, remove the major screws....Remove the floorplate/triggerguard.....The follower will also come out.....The action than can be lifted out of the buttstock.....A serial # could be found under the handguard and in the barrel groove of the buttstock.....Hope this helps....Bodes

btw.....Can you make out the WaA number on the takedown disk?

[Jack T]

Roc,
Here's a website with a pictorial step by step on how to disassemble a 98k.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/mauser98...mbly/index.asp

Jack

[Frogprince]

Alex, Virtually anybody could apply black paint and I’ve also seen it on Israeli weapons, a few from Spain, someplace in Eastern Europe (unk source), etc. Unlike stamps the paint does not betray who applied it. My point was that I’ve also seen it on ex-Norwegian arms. But in those cases I knew where they had originated from. My sense of it is that the paint was postwar by folks who did not want to go to the trouble of (re)bluing or rebuilding because they knew the weapons were only going to be temporary issue.

I have acquired KM marked items from Norway, and have seen others, especially Ostsee marked. But the great bulk were regular German Army/Wehrmacht issue. There were no markings on them from Norway only the original German ones. Norway did do some conversions themselves after the war. But I don’t see any evidence of same from your images and usually it was the better condition examples that they expended the effort on. I still think that Frankionia might be your best bet to find out some additional information. And if you do please get back to us on what you found out. Regards, FP

[Alex W.]

Can you make out the WaA number on the takedown disk?

Thanks for the info on taking part a K98k, I will take it apart tomorrow and check for internal serial #'s.

As far as a WaA number on the takedown disk... on the right side of the take down disk there seems to be something, but I can only make out letters that seem to be A5. There's still something more which might be an I or similar in front of the A5... can't tell for sure.
The left side of the take down disk definitely has a Weimar eagle and a number below. Looks like 10 and then a there might be a third letter that I can't make out. I will try to take some real close up's of the take down disks tomorrow. I already have very high res pictures but they really seem to have a lot of wear and that makes it kind of hard to identify things.

[Alex W.]

Alex, Virtually anybody could apply black paint and I’ve also seen it on Israeli weapons, a few from Spain, someplace in Eastern Europe (unk source), etc. Unlike stamps the paint does not betray who applied it. My point was that I’ve also seen it on ex-Norwegian arms. But in those cases I knew where they had originated from. My sense of it is that the paint was postwar by folks who did not want to go to the trouble of (re)bluing or rebuilding because they knew the weapons were only going to be temporary issue.

I have acquired KM marked items from Norway, and have seen others, especially Ostsee marked. But the great bulk were regular German Army/Wehrmacht issue. There were no markings on them from Norway only the original German ones. Norway did do some conversions themselves after the war. But I don’t see any evidence of same from your images and usually it was the better condition examples that they expended the effort on. I still think that Frankionia might be your best bet to find out some additional information. And if you do please get back to us on what you found out. Regards, FP

Thanks for the info on the black paint. Do you know if the germans ever painted some of their barrels black in any case in order to avoid re-bluing or was that something that started post war ?

[Frogprince]

Alex, You want I think an opinion on if your rifle was painted to touch it up during or after the war. Unfortunately ordinary black paint doesn’t leave much evidence of who and when somebody painted something - although if the paint is a modern formulation that would be an excellent indicator of a postwar paint job. There have been some major discussions on the topic of the possible painting of small arms by the Germans. Most have not really resolved anything although a very few tentative conclusions have been reached.

If its only the barrel then I would say postwar. If it’s spray painted then it’s postwar (not too many pictures of Tiger tanks towing air compressors and paint booths). Brush painted it conceivably could be wartime in the field. But you would probably have to do an analysis of the paint to see if it’s something field troops had available to them.

And like in most fields of collecting German militaria there almost always seem to be the exceptions and I have seen a couple of examples that I thought might be legitimate besides the winter camouflage (white) painted rifles. With them a fair amount of experience is helpful and if you can look at an item really closely there might be some clues that can give an indication of when it might have been painted. With this example you still haven’t taken the rifle apart so we have no idea what’s underneath - which can have a definite bearing on estimating when the paint was applied. My point being that I haven’t seen anything as yet that leads me to think that it’s anything other than a postwar paint job. Which is what I have seen with the great preponderance of rifles. FP