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**Ed Hicks** · 08-17-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Ed Hicks

WW2 German 4 Barrel Belt Buckle .22 Pistol...Anyone ever seen one of these? value range?

Thanks,

Ed
edhicks82@aol.com

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Attached Files

Buckle Gun (8).JPG (182.8 KB, 277 views)

**Ed Hicks** · 08-17-2005, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Ed Hicks

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Buckle Gun (21).JPG (154.1 KB, 382 views)

**Ed Hicks** · 08-17-2005, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Ed Hicks

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Buckle Gun (16).JPG (171.3 KB, 383 views)

**Gary Cain** · 08-17-2005, 01:30 PM

One of the truly great 'fantasy pieces' to ever be made. My uncle saw the first one of these in the mid 60's. Since then I have handled 5 or 6. They are made well but are not period in mine and many others opinions. Value is problematic because of that. Also there are now legal issues with them as they are classified as "Any Other Weapons" by the ATF. I allways love the stories about how they were used by the Gestapo to assassinate undesirables..... why bother when you can much more easily arrest them and take them back to your headquarters to do with what you want?

Gary

Originally posted by Ed Hicks

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**Ed Hicks** · 08-17-2005, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Gary Cain

One of the truly great 'fantasy pieces' to ever be made. My uncle saw the first one of these in the mid 60's. Since then I have handled 5 or 6. They are made well but are not period in mine and many others opinions. Value is problematic because of that. Also there are now legal issues with them as they are classified as "Any Other Weapons" by the ATF. I allways love the stories about how they were used by the Gestapo to assassinate undesirables..... why bother when you can much more easily arrest them and take them back to your headquarters to do with what you want?

Gary

Thanks, Gary-I saw this one recently and actually had a chance to compare it to photos of a WW2 bring back (I am told-source is quite reliable)...I could not see any differences in them...basically the same except for markings...If a copy, who made them? They are identical to the one in Johnson's souvenirs book and other publications...ATF regs state these are C&R now from my initial research.

**phosphateb** · 08-20-2005, 08:31 PM

Ed got to hold this posted item today at napca..thanks for bringing it in! My comments were to have a insignia expert to look at the eagle on the buckle. Another question is why in 44 would someone if produced for the commercial market make it for the SS but not have an ss logo onthe belt buckle. as your collector buddies showed me it differed from the ones listed in johnsons book...nonetheless, interestng to see it!

**phild** · 08-20-2005, 09:31 PM

These were made in WWII and there are a number (albeit small) that have solid provonance to that fact. Somewhere I have a mid-1970s era article from G&A magazine that lays out a good bit of research on these. As I recall from 30 years ago they were made by a French bicycle shop in a couple of different configurations (I think number of barrels and caliber varied as did the use of SS and Heer eagles), and it was unclear if any of these actually were fielded or were simply captued in the shop as prototypes.

I have examined one of these, but it was many years ago and I can not recall many specifics. They are clearly very rare, but are there seems to be a real lack of documentation as to whether these were made up as part of a German wartime contract or rather as a item for hopeful private purchase sale as a last ditch defense weapon if captured.

As to value, I really have no idea. I saw one for sale maybe 15 to 20 years ago in the $3000 to $4000 price range as I recall. I have no idea if it sold nor what what might bring today.

**dag001** · 08-21-2005, 11:13 AM

Ed & Gary,

I certainly don't know if this particular belt buckle pistol is authentic or not, but don't believe these were simply fantasy pieces. If you have the opportunity, check out W.H.B. Smith's "Small Arms of the World", Fifth Edition. This is the good one before most of the WWII stuff was removed. It was printed in Jan. 1955, long before there was enough of a collector market to justify the cost of making these up. Pictured on page 79 is a picture of one owned by Gordon Persons, the former Governor of Alabama. Hope this helps.

**GWA** · 08-21-2005, 03:39 PM

Mr Cain is "dead on the money". I saw this one at the NAPCA jig in Chattanooga this weekend.

Ask Mr Bill Grist for his thoughts.

**W Petz** · 08-21-2005, 10:23 PM

Denny,

My 1973 copy of "Small Arms of the World" still had that article under Chapter 11 Double and Multi-barrel pistols. Here is a scan of that article with the buckle.

Attached Files

buckle.jpg (240.8 KB, 150 views)

**Gary Cain** · 08-22-2005, 12:44 AM

Hi Denny,

Just because a item is listed in a book does not necessarily mean it's good. How many books do we look at as collectors and say "I know the guy that made that!" I too have the edition of Small Arms of the World and am of the opinion that a tinkerer built up a few of them and submitted one of them to Ezell with a wonderful story so it could get in a book. I know of another man who did a similar thing in the 1960's about other supposed militaria. He did it as a joke. I agree that the prices werent up to the levels they are today but there was a massive collector market growing even before the war was over. In fact there were US manufacturers making SS Cuff Titles to fill the gaps in peoples collections in 1945!

Finally, the thing makes zero sense. No German would need it. No enlisted man would be allowed to wear it as he would be out of uniform if he was wearing it, and the Gestapo have no use for it. Also with the story about a French bike shop, why would there be a German Eagle on it? For that matter how would the Frenchman avoid being arrested for building an obvious assassination weapon? I am sure the Gestapo would want to talk to him. Just think about what the people selling these are saying. One final point, with the voluminous records the Germans kept, why has there never been a German source describing these?

Gary

Originally posted by dag001

Ed & Gary,

I certainly don't know if this particular belt buckle pistol is authentic or not, but don't believe these were simply fantasy pieces. If you have the opportunity, check out W.H.B. Smith's "Small Arms of the World", Fifth Edition. This is the good one before most of the WWII stuff was removed. It was printed in Jan. 1955, long before there was enough of a collector market to justify the cost of making these up. Pictured on page 79 is a picture of one owned by Gordon Persons, the former Governor of Alabama. Hope this helps.

**Gary Cain** · 08-22-2005, 12:47 AM

Whats the provenance? The closest they can get to WWII is the mid 50's. I guarantee you there were fakers back then, and they spotted a mark and concocted a preposterous story to sell it because back then no one knew how the Germans did things and it was easy to fool them.

Gary

Originally posted by phild

These were made in WWII and there are a number (albeit small) that have solid provonance to that fact. Somewhere I have a mid-1970s era article from G&A magazine that lays out a good bit of research on these. As I recall from 30 years ago they were made by a French bicycle shop in a couple of different configurations (I think number of barrels and caliber varied as did the use of SS and Heer eagles), and it was unclear if any of these actually were fielded or were simply captued in the shop as prototypes.

I have examined one of these, but it was many years ago and I can not recall many specifics. They are clearly very rare, but are there seems to be a real lack of documentation as to whether these were made up as part of a German wartime contract or rather as a item for hopeful private purchase sale as a last ditch defense weapon if captured.

As to value, I really have no idea. I saw one for sale maybe 15 to 20 years ago in the $3000 to $4000 price range as I recall. I have no idea if it sold nor what what might bring today.

**David North** · 08-22-2005, 10:25 AM

Originally posted on the Belts and Buckles forum.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...d.php?t=107726

Regards,

David

**Ed Hicks** · 08-22-2005, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by David North

Originally posted on the Belts and Buckles forum.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...d.php?t=107726

Regards,

David

I will say that mine is a bit less $ than HG's!!!

Ed

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