He has only got one stock. Check out the small damages visible on the Gunbroker photos. Stock is the same on both rifles, but the receiver has been switched (different serial numbers on the receivers, same minute damage to stocks). This is a 100% scam.
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I would love to see photos of the known copies! I have personally handled 3 of these stocks, and nothing in the pictures from the auction tells his stock apart from the ones I have seen! OK! I am 100% certain that he is a fraudster, there is no doubt about that! But the actual stock (same stock has been used for all his auctions) appears to be genuine!Originally posted by Mike StevesComment
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Berg; the stock is a joke- its not even close to any of the 3 I have quality pictures of; ALL were exactly as Leon's example appears:
http://lmd-militaria.com/page80.html
If you click on this above link & then click on that websites links you will see a legit (and original) example; all 3 I have seen were exactly like this one... there are no other variation other than this that I know of.
You can't honestly tell me Leon's example & this huckster’s example is even close in quality? The differences are dramatic in my view; that Vegas repro is pretty cheesy imo- look at the take down & the recoil lug, hell the surface looks like its really made of plastic & has been in the sun too long...
Here are direct links:
http://lmd-militaria.com/page81.html
http://lmd-militaria.com/page82.html
Originally posted by BergflakComment
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I understand what you are saying, but there are a few points worth considering:
The pranksters stock has a take-down hole that has been clearly sanded. I have seen the same effect on the metal on ordinary stocks. This is pritty typical for a unqualified restorer. Same has happened with the recoil lug, but this has clearly been heavily rusted, as he hasn't managed to get rid of all the pitting. I agree that the finnish is bad, but I think this is due to the fact that the stock has been in a pritty bad shape before he started on it! Dried out bakelite can be greased up to get this appearence.
What the stock has, is the canvas structure that is special for these stocks. It has also got the correct "H" and early WaA's, identical to the other stock you mention. The area on the side of the but almost looks like it has been sanded as well, but that might be the production process.
Looking at this case from the other point of view: IF there are good quality reproductions being made some of us should have been able to produce a picture! Hearsay that someone claims that stocks are being made is fine, but as I am interested in these things I would actually love to see just how good they can make them! Because making a copy and making a COPY is two different things, especially when it comes to production costs. I believe plastic copies in "AK47-brown" would be sufficient to fool enough collectors to make a good buck. Going all the way duplicating even the canvas structure just doesn't rhyme......
Originally posted by grafComment
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I had thought with as many rifles as you have chopped up you'd be experienced enough to judge real from repro...
If you want some firm proof, email the guy & ask him to elaborate on his rifles further, from what I hear he has 4 of them & he's as wacky than michael moore & al franken combined...
Lastly, I don't think this a good reproduction, looks dam cheesy to me.
Originally posted by BergflakComment
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Never chopped a bakelite stocked one (yet!Originally posted by graf
). Don't think the prankster will give us more to go on either. As far as I can tell he has one stock, and that is it. If you watch the pictures of the different rifles the stock is the same on all of them! If he was going to sell the rifles in the first place he should have invested in more of these illusive copy stocks, but since he has only got the one he, is trying to sell off the same stock as many times as possible. The potential buyers will of course pay for an article they will never get! You don't seriously think that this guy is trying to sell these rifles as pictured (which would be impossible unless he has a secret stock-duplicator machine)? The guy is not wacky at all; he is just EVIL 
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I agree that the stock looks cheesy, but not because it is a reproduction, I firmly believe that it has been refurbished from a state lesser than good!Comment
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It isn't difficult to form a resin stock, impregnated with canvas, cloth or otherwise, from a mold. This would be especially true if such a stock could command a $12,000 price tag. McMillan makes great fibreglass impregnated stocks of much better quality than that clown has and they retail for under $400. The "sanding" and polishing, etc., are just enough to obscure details. This chap says he has four of them (!). I can guarantee that reproduction can be made for under a grand or so. I trust neither the stock nor the seller concerning the authenticity of this piece.Last edited by airbiscuit; 07-02-2005, 06:39 AM.Comment
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There is no doubt at all that this "stock" is a fake / fraud / reproduction - call it what you will! The originals, as has been already shown, exhibit a much finer appearance, and more pronounced surface layer of the reinforcement matting. The differences between them is night and day *kinda surprised you thought they looked legit Reidar)
It would be very interesting to finally ascertain the exact origins of these stocks (besides "Philippines") and who contracted to have these made and when. I also believe that a company in Germany made some as well, and had heard - hearsay - that Jensens example in BBOTW was indeed one of the German reproduction stocks. Like i said - HEARSAY!
For the seller to try to fleece people with this multi-thousand dollar ruse is fraud - pure and simple - and perhpas our friendly Southern lawyer could do some more cajoling and prodding to finally get the wind up this shyster?
I also heard an uncofirmed rumour that a US company had contracted to have oak stocks made as well...
It is sad indeed that the world of collecting Kar98k's has become a sordidly fraudulent arena, with every Tom, Dick, and Harry out to fleece the unwary, and in some case, the knowledgeable! Never before has the expression caveat emptor been SO needed in collecting.
I'll stick to collecting Portuguese M941 (Kar98k) for a while - at least no one has tried doing anything odd with these as yet, and they are always original and 100% matching.
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I am still hoping that someone will make this thread move on from "hear-say" to picture of these copy stocks! My point is that making a copy (not a resin copy, but a true bakelite copy) will still be beyond the scope of forgerers. I will have a hard time believing that they can be made so convincing untill someone show me some pictures. The new made stocks, if they indeed exist, will have a hard time getting this close. I have seen tons of copies of everything worth copying over the years, but there is always a cost/win ratio whenever the forgerers make their copies! If this clown have access to new made copies, then why on earth do he sell the same stock 4 times? The stock is still reffered to as "stocks", but there is clearly only 1 of them!How good can they make them? That is what intrigues me. People fear copies all the time, but most copies made today fall through because they are inaccurate in one or more details, if not overall "cheesy-looking"! Bring on the German/Phillipino stocks with pictures so we can judge them!!!!Comment
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Well, yeah! I saw an original stock that was sporterizedOriginally posted by airbiscuit
, and they are indeed hollow!! Hard to make a resin copy in a mould that is hollow! Fibreglass isn't actually close to bakelite, and the McMillan stock is probably made in the hundreds to keep cost down. "This chap says he has four of them (!)" Yes, he might say so, but he has pictured the same stock in all of the auctions, with different hardware mounted! The whole sale is a fraud, but if the pictured stock is a copy, then the ones I have seen and handled in collections and museums might be that as well!
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Reidar,
Actually, bakelite is not only easy to work with in it's fluid uncured state, it is also still readily available, especially in the electronics and engineering industry.
A while ago, I had a friend who works in the engineering sector of a coal mine send me some 3m bakelite (3M being the manufactuere / brand) so that I could make some bakelite pistol grips.
I first made a silastic rubber mold of the originals after I repaired them. I mixed the two parts of the bakelite, and poured into the mold. In short order, I had perfect replicas. Colours available was the "traditional" red-brown or black - I used black.
It would be VERY easy to make a mold for a stock either in BULK RTV silastic rubber (cheap enough, and good for around 100 reuses), or even a cement cavity mold. ANYONE can lay canvas strips into the wet resins / bakelites to reinforce them.
The stocks that are fakes would appear to utilise the 3M red bakelite. I can happily supply the 3M catalogue numbers if you like.Comment
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Yeah! I have worked with moulds myself, and I am very much aware of the possibilities and the limits out there. There is a tiny difference between making a pair of pistol grips and a straight stock though. So if the copier had a mould, why the did he only make one stock? It would have been a much better scam if he produced one after another, adding mechanisms as he went along?
If the making of a good stock is so "VERY easy to make" and "ANYONE" can do it, why isn't there an established market for them? I would gladly have paid for a copy to add to my own collection. And how on earth would you be able to make a mould that would make it hollow!???? You would have to make the stock in two parts and then join them together, either leaving a seam or you would have to build the outer shell by hand. I am not saying it can't be done, but it is well beyond the reach of most craftsmen today. And why would a forgerer bother. He could make a cheap resin copy looking good enough to fool 50% of the collectors market, and that would be more than good enough for his bussiness!
You are still writing about the "copied" stock in plural!? Have you seen more than one of these "copied" stocks please let me know where it is so we can compare them!
Todays technology would make it possible to replicate a Tiger Tank, but it doesn't mean it has to be out there.......Last edited by Bergflak; 07-03-2005, 05:23 AM.Comment
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There was a dealer out of florida selling "original bakelite 98k stocks" about 5 - 6 years ago. Well he was a flake and a half and anyone that tried to get anything out of him sams sending monies first got better odds getting hit by a low flying plane while reshingling their roof !.
The pair I saw that came from this turkey were laughable !!.Comment
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Hello Bergflak,
Your response and demand for proof of a negative is perplexing. It reminds me of a few posters on another forum who demanded that I prove there were fake SS stamps and rifles being made. Can you prove that monkeys with big bat wings dressed in bellhop uniforms don't live in the Congo? Or that Bill Gates is not a space alien? Can you prove that I am not a werewolf? So why must one prove that the exact fake stock has been made? To imply that the doubters here are in any way less noble for doubting because they don't have actual proof this stock is fake is a dangerous precedent. I guess we should accept everything as original unless we can PROVE it fake? You know such a standard is absurd. The emphasis should be on the SELLER to prove that the stock is original (it isn't). The issue here is not whether someone can replicate a Tiger tank. That is ridiculous. The issue is whether there is enough financial incentive to fake a stock with an asking price of $12,000 and whether such stocks have, in fact, been faked. The seller has stated that he has FOUR of them. If you dispute this, then you are saying the seller is not telling the truth. So, you say he's lying about having four, but telling the truth that the one he has is authentic? Email him and ask him about the provenance. Vulch laid it for everyone nicely. I trust his technical knowledge in this area. The difference between handgun grips and a rifle stock is the size of the mold. McMillan could make one of these for you in whatever color or texture or composition you wanted for under a grand and it would look better than that one. WW2 phenolic resin ("bakelite") technology is difficult to replicate? Give me a break.
I trust your knowledge and expertise and you offer great gear for sale. But I have no doubt in my mind that this stock is not original. I'll trust one of these in the MoD Pattern Room with the provenance tags, but regrettably not the one offered by this "interesting" seller who has four. BTW, four of these would represent almost 20% of the total production if you believe certain sources. I wouldn't mind owning 20% of Mauser Oberndorf production 
Cheers,
AB
Originally posted by BergflakYeah! I have worked with moulds myself, and I am very much aware of the possibilities and the limits out there. There is a tiny difference between making a pair of pistol grips and a straight stock though. So if the copier had a mould, why the did he only make one stock? It would have been a much better scam if he produced one after another, adding mechanisms as he went along?
If the making of a good stock is so "VERY easy to make" and "ANYONE" can do it, why isn't there an established market for them? I would gladly have paid for a copy to add to my own collection. And how on earth would you be able to make a mould that would make it hollow!???? You would have to make the stock in two parts and then join them together, either leaving a seam or you would have to build the outer shell by hand. I am not saying it can't be done, but it is well beyond the reach of most craftsmen today. And why would a forgerer bother. He could make a cheap resin copy looking good enough to fool 50% of the collectors market, and that would be more than good enough for his bussiness!
You are still writing about the "copied" stock in plural!? Have you seen more than one of these "copied" stocks please let me know where it is so we can compare them!
Todays technology would make it possible to replicate a Tiger Tank, but it doesn't mean it has to be out there.......Last edited by airbiscuit; 07-04-2005, 09:15 PM.Comment
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Per Vulch:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic....28phenolic.29
Great stuff for injection molding (phenolic resins, i.e. "bakelite" is one of the current materials of choice for injection molding). Get on the internet and see how many companies offer injection molding services. Get a 98k stock, make a mold, heat bakelite (phenolic resin, used today in circuit boards), mix wood chips, sawdust, whatever, pressure inject it into your stock mold, let it dry, sand it, burn it, add some proofs, add hardware from a cheap RC, slap a rehacked RC in it, and put it on an auction for $12k. Note that no one is going to make a "one of" due to the set up cost. But they may make a "four of"
or a "twenty of". I'm sure the stock itself could be done for under a grand. Probably cheaper in Asia or the, er, Phillippines. Heck, someone may be able to do it themselves. Bergflak, what is so different about the different phenolic resins used by the Germans (in colors ranging from red to black, with all different kinds of compositions) than today? The answer is not much if any, and certainly not enough difference to be discerned by the human eye.
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