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    #1

    The German serial number system?

    Could someone here please explain to me exactly how the Germans used the serial number system with 4 digits and a letter? I must admit that I'm confused.

    Example: They start making a new weapon in 1940 and start out with serial 0001 and no letter. As they reach 9999 they start over with 0001 but with the letter a after the serial. This way they continue.

    My question is what they did when they reached january 1941? If by then they'd reached, say, 9999m would they then continue with 0001n in the following year or did they start over from 0001 each new year???
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    #2
    Serials started out with SN 1 and no letter. As they reach SN 9999 (or 10000) they start over with 1 but with the suffix letter (a, b, c, d.......z) after the serial. This way they continue. Some factories (for example Walther on P.38 pistol) start from 1 every new year. Another factories
    (for example Spreewerk on P.38 pistol) continued without gap. The serial number system on each one type of weapon was similar but not necessary the same.

    Comment

      #3
      Thank you for your help. So basically it depends on the factory? That makes it hard to use the serial for estimating a weapon's time of production Unless of course you know what system that particular factory used.

      Are you also saying that one factory producing different types of weapons may have used both systems at the same time?
      Last edited by P08; 06-10-2005, 08:06 AM.

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        #4
        It's not as difficult as it may seem, but it requires the knowledge gained from research. Using K98s as an example (because they are so easy), the markings contain information denoting the factory, year of production, & serial #. A great deal of data is available (here, in books, & on the web) about production quantities, so it is possible to interpolate (extrapolate?) an approximate "birth date" for many of these arms. The Germans were fixated w/documentation & record-keeping. This is a good thing, as it allowed the Nazis to be held accountable for their actions after the war, as well as the benefit to modern collectors like us, who can make use of this info.

        Best,
        Matt

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          #5
          While the basic system has been explained I’m afraid that it does get a little more confusing depending on who, what and when gets factored into the equation. For example Mauser Werke did not always follow the system as described for its rifles. Most bayonets did and double letter blocks are not uncommon, but there are exceptions.

          If the weapon is dated you know what year it was made. And as stated by now most of the serial number ranges are pretty well known so that you can tentatively say within a range when a particular weapon was made, although it probably won’t be exact. And for the undated weapons like many of the pistols IMO it’s usually just a best guess - especially since most of the original records were destroyed, lost, etc. during or after the war. FP

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            #6
            Good question! and one that has many answers I'm afraid.

            Jan explained the basic theory of serial numbers that applies to many German firearms, mostly P38s. However, many pistols did not use letters in thier serial number such as early Walther PP, PPK, Sauer 38, and Mauser HSc, just to name a few.
            Many of these use a 5 or even 6 diget serial numbers. Later on the PP and PPK did have a letter suffix. This is usually a "k" or "P".

            Rifles on the other hand, especially K98s are a totally different monster! It really depends on the manufacturer. There are some manufacturers' dates that used a double letter suffix (example being "dot" 1944 K98s), some used 4, 5, and even 6 diget numbers as well.

            So to answer your question; it all depends on what weapon you are referring to, and what maker made it.

            Matt

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              #7
              P.08 & P.38 versus other small "bangbang"

              Originally posted by Matt Weber
              Jan explained the basic theory of serial numbers that applies to many German firearms, mostly P38s. However, many pistols did not use letters in thier serial number such as early Walther PP, PPK, Sauer 38, and Mauser HSc, just to name a few.
              Many of these use a 5 or even 6 diget serial numbers. Later on the PP and PPK did have a letter suffix. This is usually a "k" or "P".

              Matt
              P.08 and P.38 are "government models". Adopted service guns. Other pistols you mentioned were bought in deficiency. Then P.08 and P.38 follows the "Vorschrift" and are numbered in Army manner. Other pistols are commercial production and numbering system was depending on factory decision only. Definitely the any other pistols than P.08 and P.38 are results of confiscation (in occupied countries) and/or deficiency.

              Comment

                #8
                Thanks everybody for your answers. Unfortunately things are not as simple as I hoped for. So it varies not only from factory to factory but also from weapon type to weapon type? Yes the year is almost always stamped on the weapons, but I wanted to estimate a month of production.

                Example: A weapon stamped 1943 has the serial 2100P. How can I guess an approximate month of production? First I need to know the average monthly production quantity for that particular weapon in that particular factory, right?

                Some of you hint that there are lists over serials produced at various factories? Can such lists be found on the internet? Not all books contain such lists.

                How can I find out the average montly production numbers otherwise?

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                  #9
                  serial number

                  Does anyone know if the Germans used only two numbers on parts on the mp40. For example. I have one with a serial number of 3753. It has 753 on several small parts but on the barrel nut it has only 75. Is that normal or ok? Thanks

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                    #10
                    Don't know that much about how the different manufacturers serial numbered the K98k rifle, but when Mauser began manufacture of the P.08 in 1934 they ran the serial numbers straight through without starting over at the beginning of each year. This resulted in P.08's made in 1937 and 1941 with serial number letter suffix z being earlier than letter suffix a. Without the knowledge of what letter suffix block was used at the beginning of the production year, it would be totally confusing.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Just to add, this has led some police agencies to get confused about stolen guns. There could be several P38s, for example, with the same serial#, if this is not understood. A P38 could show 2345 a ac 43, while another could show 2345 a ac 44.Two completely different guns, but the LEOs do not understand the differences.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Wilhelm View Post
                        Just to add, this has led some police agencies to get confused about stolen guns. There could be several P38s, for example, with the same serial#, if this is not understood. A P38 could show 2345 a ac 43, while another could show 2345 a ac 44.Two completely different guns, but the LEOs do not understand the differences.



                        Much worse for Lugers and most models of 98 rifles in that they don't even the realize the letters are there and are reading receiver numbers with no letter (Luger) or do not know how to translate the small case script letter.....many are difficult to discern by experienced collectors! A Mauser made Luger Q vs. O for instance....good luck! In the case of Lugers there were about 200 pistols (approx) that share the same number for every number between 1-10,000 if letter suffix, maker and date are disregarded or not understood as with code dates and code makers. I would love to see a non Luger collector transcribe a DWM toggle scroll!

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