98K S243 1937 date-info needed

[BobD]

What would be a rough value or range on that model in 80-85% condition, all matching even the small screws, with sling. Is this a fairly rare hard to get date/manufacture? Picked it up from vets daughter today. Not a rifle collector as such but it was there in the package and am not very knowledgeable about prices. Wanted to see if I did OK on it. Thanks for any help/opinions.

[P08]

I can't remember, at work right now. But the best you can do is buy the book K98k - The Backbone Of The Wehrmacht. It contains info on makers and production numbers plus many other things.


I don't know the prices on your market.

[sszza2]

BobD,

Condition, matching, original or period reworked, branch designation, and manufacturer/year are the primary factors when determining value. The subject rifle was made by Mauser-Borsigwalde which is not a rare manufacturer or date. However it is a pre-war rifle which is always good. If 80-85% finish, undamaged, 100% matching, with untouched stock and heer accepted (will not be E/L or E/M in '37) - the value is approximately $9-1300. Sling, cleaning rod and muzzle cover would add further. It also could have Nord or Ost sea group marks on the bolt disassembly disk. This would add approx. 30-50%. This is the range things move at in my area. Hope this helps.

Scott B

[BobD]

Thanks Scott. I am probably overstating condition %. don't know how to evaluate that. Got hold of a copy of Laws book. Gun matches all markings exactly, including stock with Sn and waffens/ H and a K. Not refinished stock although has dings. HAs rod and sling(L&F on metal and COG or COB on leather) although sling is cracking in spots and the small leather holder (ring) on end is torn loose on one side. It has light surface rust/browning on trigger guard and magazine plate. Some on chamber where date etc is. Rest looks fairly good but not great, no pitting. Because of my overdoing conditon I'll figure 650 as the value for figuring out if I did OK on it (at that I did fine as I originally thought maybe 500).

Anyhow, thanks for your response. Appreciate getting at least a rough idea of value.

[bodes]

Thanks Scott. I am probably overstating condition %. don't know how to evaluate that. Got hold of a copy of Laws book. Gun matches all markings exactly, including stock with Sn and waffens/ H and a K. Not refinished stock although has dings. HAs rod and sling(L&F on metal and COG or COB on leather) although sling is cracking in spots and the small leather holder (ring) on end is torn loose on one side. It has light surface rust/browning on trigger guard and magazine plate. Some on chamber where date etc is. Rest looks fairly good but not great, no pitting. Because of my overdoing conditon I'll figure 650 as the value for figuring out if I did OK on it (at that I did fine as I originally thought maybe 500).

Anyhow, thanks for your response. Appreciate getting at least a rough idea of value.

Bob, It sounds to me like you are talking about the Eagle H proof in the side of the buttstock...This would be a Heer or Army acceptance proof....IF that is the case, yours should carry the early Weimar eagle acceptance proof with the H....IF that's the case, yours would NOT have the Nord or Ost sea proofs in the takedown disk as these would be Kriegsmarine or Navy acceptance proofs....The K is indication that the stock is for the K98k rifle configuration only.....$900-$1300 is not all an unreasonable estimated value....Am curious IF the cleaning rod is originally serial #'d to the piece?.....That would definitely be a very nice addition....Bodes

[BobD]

Bodes

Thanks Bodes. I checked the cleaning rod and can find no sn . There is a single digit or letter(depends if right side up or not) that looks like a 7 or an odd looking L. The stock is weimar H. I appreciate the responses I have received. Mostly I needed to know an approximate value so thank you. I need to oil it up and wipe it down. Vets daughter had it since her father died in 1989 in a dusty old storage area and never once took it out.
I will eventually take some good pics as sooner or later I will probably sell it to buy something more along my collecting interests.
Thanks again.
Bob

[P08]

Can I butt in in this thread and ask a related question?



I have this K98k that's matching except for the cleaning rod which has another number than the rest of the rifle (plus it's from Mauser where the rifle is Erma).

What would you consider a fair price for this K98k: http://www.germansteel.net/s27.htm

Also do you think that this is the original colour of the wood or has it been painted/treated with something?

[sszza2]

Bodes,

You are absolutely incorrect about the use of Nord or Ost sea group marks on '37 date E/H marked rifles. Use of these markings on stock disks has been found on '37 date K98ks of various manufacturers. I have owned and recorded several rifles produced in 1937 with the E/H and Nord or Ost Sea property marks. It may even have occurred earlier but I am not aware of any information to support this. From approx. '38 forward the use of the N or O group marks on the disks would be in combination with E/M acceptance. This condition is certainly no revelation to experienced G/K98 collectors. The use of E/L marking for Luftwaffe acceptance is also not found on factory original rifles until approx. 1938. The use of RFV property marks on E/H accepted rifles has been found as early as K date. The point here is that the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine certainly received K98k allocations during the '34-'37 period. However these rifles were not uniquely branch accepted on the right side until approx. 1938 time period. Evidence demonstrates your implied premise that unique property marks were not placed on Kriegsmarine and other rifles until '38 is patently false. It also supposes that property marks such as N or O were placed on the subject rifle at the date of manufacture/allocation. Your position also demonstrates a very limited knowledge of K98k production, allocations, branch and property markings.

Scott B

[bodes]

Bodes,

You are absolutely incorrect about the use of Nord or Ost sea group marks on '37 date E/H marked rifles. Use of these markings on stock disks has been found on '37 date K98ks of various manufacturers. I have owned and recorded several rifles produced in 1937 with the E/H and Nord or Ost Sea property marks. It may even have occurred earlier but I am not aware of any information to support this. From approx. '38 forward the use of the N or O group marks on the disks would be in combination with E/M acceptance. This condition is certainly no revelation to experienced G/K98 collectors. The use of E/L marking for Luftwaffe acceptance is also not found on factory original rifles until approx. 1938. The use of RFV property marks on E/H accepted rifles has been found as early as K date. The point here is that the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine certainly received K98k allocations during the '34-'37 period. However these rifles were not uniquely branch accepted on the right side until approx. 1938 time period. Evidence demonstrates your implied premise that unique property marks were not placed on Kriegsmarine and other rifles until '38 is patently false. It also supposes that property marks such as N or O were placed on the subject rifle at the date of manufacture/allocation. Your position also demonstrates a very limited knowledge of K98k production, allocations, branch and property markings.

Scott B

You're the one with the supposed knowledge of all the "phases" of K98k production.....Seeing since you know more than Robert Jensen and Richard Law, maybe it's time to write a book .....And I don't recall BobD mentioning that those markings were found on the takedown disk, so it's completely irrelevant to this particular discussion.....I've got better things to do with my time.....My cousin just informed me she's found the telegram that told my great grandparents my great uncle had been killed in WW2.....I've never seen it and have been piecing together his stuff for years.....Not to mention, a fellow collector friend I've known about 20 years has informed me, he came across a CE1944(Sauer) K98k with the serial #4.....No lower case letter....I've got more interesting things to think about .....Bodes

[graf]

Not to take away from ScottB's excellent outline on naval marked rifles- right on as usual Scott!

Your right the stock is "peertied" up & so is the metal- been reblued (seen a lot worse though) I happen to have one of the first rifles I ever owned & it is a 1937 S42 and it is in near the exact condition yours is in except mine had a proper early MO m/m stock at time of purchase (reblued but not terribly done- some are so harshly prep'd that the markings are faint or obliterated) I paid $250 for it years ago & have traded the stock several time since (today its in a awesome 36 MO stockset & it’s my shooter, wouldn't trade it for anything yet its still my least "valuable" rifle, the stock I have it in now cost nearly as much I paid for the entire rifle in the first place.)
I would say your rifle is worth about $400-500 max & only because its matching with the original stock, and a good early war maker.
Too bad as that once was a very valuable rifle if as described.

Just my opinion so don't take it personally, you might find a higher price if you sell it to someone who really wants it- after all rc's are $200-250 and I'd rather have your rifle over an rc anyday of the week.

Can I butt in in this thread and ask a related question?



I have this K98k that's matching except for the cleaning rod which has another number than the rest of the rifle (plus it's from Mauser where the rifle is Erma).

What would you consider a fair price for this K98k: http://www.germansteel.net/s27.htm

Also do you think that this is the original colour of the wood or has it been painted/treated with something?

[sszza2]

Bodes,

You sound as if you want to take your toys and go home!

BobD did not say the subject rifle had Nord or Ost Sea group mark on the takedown disk and niether did I. (By the way the bolt takedown disk is where such a mark would appear.) I just mentioned that it could have this mark and is a known variation in '37 which would effect value. You are the person who stated that a '37 date "would NOT" have such markings. You are incorrect and once again have demonstrated your lack of knowledge of the subject. How EMBARASSING for you.

I apologize for not being a sheep and believing everything in 'BBOTW' and everything from the expert collection utilized. Very few serious collectors did when it first came out and even fewer do today. The single collection, single expert scam was exposed early on.

I suggest that among "the more interesting things" you should do is - study legit G/K98's. I am currently working on a reference on SS marked G/K98s. I look forward to any expertise you would have to offer on that subject. However your premise that criticism can only come from authors is rediculous. Anyone who pays for a reference has the right to comment on the quality (or lack thereof) of the product the same as any other consumer product. Authors have no special dispensation and deserve none.

Good luck on the CE44-I hope you are able to tell if its legit. I own a single digit no letter BSW and a single digit with letter AX. Single digits are very neat. Unfortunately my CE44 is not a single digit and is in the "f" range.

I also apologize in advance for the sarcastic tone of my recent correspondece. However, time has not yet given me the patience to suffer the "internet" and 'BBOTW' experts like Bodes very well.

Scott B

[bodes]

Bodes,

You sound as if you want to take your toys and go home!

BobD did not say the subject rifle had Nord or Ost Sea group mark on the takedown disk and niether did I. (By the way the bolt takedown disk is where such a mark would appear.) I just mentioned that it could have this mark and is a known variation in '37 which would effect value. You are the person who stated that a '37 date "would NOT" have such markings. You are incorrect and once again have demonstrated your lack of knowledge of the subject. How EMBARASSING for you.

I apologize for not being a sheep and believing everything in 'BBOTW' and everything from the expert collection utilized. Very few serious collectors did when it first came out and even fewer do today. The single collection, single expert scam was exposed early on.

I suggest that among "the more interesting things" you should do is - study legit G/K98's. I am currently working on a reference on SS marked G/K98s. I look forward to any expertise you would have to offer on that subject. However your premise that criticism can only come from authors is rediculous. Anyone who pays for a reference has the right to comment on the quality (or lack thereof) of the product the same as any other consumer product. Authors have no special dispensation and deserve none.

Good luck on the CE44-I hope you are able to tell if its legit. I own a single digit no letter BSW and a single digit with letter AX. Single digits are very neat. Unfortunately my CE44 is not a single digit and is in the "f" range.

I also apologize in advance for the sarcastic tone of my recent correspondece. However, time has not yet given me the patience to suffer the "internet" and 'BBOTW' experts like Bodes very well.

Scott B

Scott, IF you would go back and re-read the thread pertaining to the gent who was asking where to find sniper variations and how they were built, I clearly listed Senich's book.....I also listed it with the idea that it was merely reference material....I also believe I clearly stated that NO reference book was perfect.....I wouldn't advise that to anybody....Too much important imformation lacking in them....To be completely honest, I've been fortunate not to need them to find decent rifles....My question than Scott is where do some of these up and coming collectors find enough pertainant information to know what they need to know?.....Very few gun dealers/collectors at shows will partake of their knowledge.....That's why I recomend them just for the "basics".....And to take that information with a grain of salt...The missing pieces of the "puzzle of Knowledge" is something they will need to find from fellow collectors.....I'm very thankful to the ones I've surrounded myself with....They've saved me many a pitfall....The gent who currently has the Sauer made K98k is a gent whose been involved with this for over 30 years.....He helped me from the beginning in not spending tons of money on junk.....People like him I'm afraid are few and far between....Bodes

sniper variations

[sszza2]

Bodes,

I believe that new collectors can become successful by doing the following:

1. Identify, meet and network with as many reputable collectors and dealers as you can. The more sources and teachers and opinions the better. I have rarely encountered experienced collectors or dealers who are not open to helping new collectors. It is in everyones best interest to help develop new collectors. Treat them with respect and they will do likewise.

2. Buy every reference on the subject you can lay your hands on. However, treat the information in these books with the same healthy skepticism that one should treat a newspaper article. Information may be anything from completely accurate to partially accurate to flat wrong to self serving crap meant to legitimize fakes and/or stroke egos.

3. Beware of any reference that relies primarily on a single collection and/or single expert. A high school teacher wouldnt accept a research paper with a similar single source condition like this - why should you?

4. Beware of internet experts. They generally own 3 RCs, 'BBOTW', very little hands on experience with original specimens and a vivid imagination.

5. Become a student not only of the objects but the history of the times. You will never understand and appreciate the object completely without knowing the history of the times. I know longtime collectors who couldnt tell you when Poland, France and Russia were invaded by Germany. Embarassing.

6. To be a good learner one must first be a good listener.

7. The hobby is too full of BS theories and guesswork. Be willing to accept that there are not always precise answers to every question. Continued research will answer many questions. Other questions may remain unanswered. Better to accept we dont know then develop BS theories.

8. Dont just be a taker. Reward those people who become mentors. When you become an expert on a subject offer them your expertise. When you decide to sell or trade they should be the first people you speak with. The people who mentored me early on are still the first people I go to whenever I am selling or trading and I have become the first person they go to. The premium items have stayed in a very tight circle. Quid pro quo.

9. Buy the best quality you can find regardless of price. Some purchases will be a good deal some wont. Paying too much for a high quality item is just like buying it at a fair price a few years early. It all works out in the wash. However, crap will always be crap.

10. Finally, if collecting K98ks is driven by a need to compensate for personal shortcomings or to have power over people through objects - switch to collecting Barbies or Beanie Babies. The hobby doesnt need anymore of your type.

Just my thoughts.

Scott B