What are the Odds?

[crowback]

good old days

Seems that when guns were plentiful an cheap we had less crime. Early 1960's ad.

[bodes]

I don’t disagree with any of the comments posted but getting back to these 1918 dated cartridge cases I tend to believe that they were bring back WWI and hold some very slight possibility the same surplus 8mm ammo was imported into the US or Canada after WWI and sold in the 20s and 30s. I will admit that I have never researched the issue and was not alive then to know. I feel pretty confident in saying that 1918 ammo was found in Germany in any quantities and imported after1945. I guess ultimately it would impossible to say for sure without talking to the person who left it there.

Due to the Versaille Treaty, one would think the Germans would have been limited to the amount of ammunition they could posess, along with the weapons to equip their 100,000 man army....Plus not being allowed an air force or having tanks....This could preclude the need for such supplies being confiscated and potentially ending up on the surplus market....Bodes

[phild]

Due to the Versaille Treaty, one would think the Germans would have been limited to the amount of ammunition they could posess, along with the weapons to equip their 100,000 man army....Plus not being allowed an air force or having tanks....This could preclude the need for such supplies being confiscated and potentially ending up on the surplus market....Bodes

Yes I realize that, but I can only speak to my experience in looking for and at
German military ammunition. To be clear, I am no expert on the subject and am making no claims in that regards. I can say that I have been looking for German military ammo at many gun shows, shops and ads both private and from distributors since the mid 1970s and buying and shooting since the mid-late 60s. I say that not to imply that I’m anything on the subject but just to offer that 50 some odd years is some basis of perspective at least.

What I’ve seen is literally tons of WWII ammo in 8mm and 9mm (but 7.65 is crazy rare!!) and fair numbers of 1880s boxed “.43 Mauser” for the 71 family. In addition the old 8mm .318 round nosed pre S 8mm can be found sometimes in clips and sometimes boxed (tough) and I think the last German Army contract loads were made in March 1903. HOWEVER, I have hardly ever been able to find more than the odd round or occasional stripper of pre 1919 (or 20s) 8mm Spitzer or 9mm 08 rounds boxed in collections much less for sale.
My conclusion has long been that tens of thousands of those rounds
From the WWI period were not imported or I would have seen them or at least run into old timers (I’ve bought guns from WWI vets) who had. If others have different experience I welcome to hear it and learn, but it is “dangerous” just to assume because something occurred after WWII that a very similar situation occurred after WWI.

I realize that the fairly recent books on the Gew98 (and Sturgis Luger) show boxes WWI ammo in some numbers so sure it exists but I have seen very little of it here

[Alan Smith]

Phild: I've not been at it nearly as long as you, but my observations are similar to yours re: lack of availability of WWI German military issue 7.92 here in the US. Over the years I've found probably 30-50 loose rounds of WWI German 9mm pistol ammo (via digging through mixed lots of old grungy ammo at gunshows, flea markets, etc.). During this time, however, I don't think I have ever found any 7.92 rifle ammunition.

So, I tend to believe that your supposition is correct: there must not have been large quantities of surplus 7.92 German military ammo imported into the US after WWI (as was the case after WWII). Also, I suspect that the 9mm pistol rounds I have found over the years are tied to the well-documented post-WWI import of German military surplus of P.08 "Luger" pistols into the US; I am not aware of any similar import of ex-German military surplus rifles (and I am excluding vet bring-backs from the term "surplus").

On the fantastic examples of 7.92 WWI German military ammo depicted in the recent European publications you mention, perhaps I just assumed this (or perhaps I read it somewhere), but within the past 30-40 years someone appears to have found a decent little "stash" of this old ammo that was carefully stored somewhere in Europe, yielding the super nice examples shown in these books.

I do recall seeing a full (or almost full) bandoleer of the WWI 7.92 German military ammo on GB recently . . . . I think the reserve price was $1,000 or so and I passed on it. While interesting to me, I just did not feel it prudent to sink that amount of money into the ammo offering.

[Alan Smith]

Reflecting further: I don't think I have any intact WWI German military 7.92mm ammo. All I have are the empty shell casings shown here. This single 5-round stripper clip was among a grouping of battlefield pickup items that I acquired about 10 years ago (via WA Forum) from the estate of someone who had apparently participated in the early 1920's "battlefield tourism" on the Western Front. As the old period tag shows, the 8mm cases were picked up in the vicinity of Arras, France. All of the items in the grouping (including the ammo pouch) and a number of exploded British and German ordnance items had tags indicating that they came from Arras.

So . . that's all I can contribute . . . just a single stripper clip with 5 empty cartridge cases. I do, however, really enjoy this modest little relic as it is a direct battlefield pickup of items actually utilized in an identified battle.

[phild]

I saw that bandolier as well or one like it, I would have loved to have owned it but not quiet that much I guess. Since this post was opened I started to see if I could even find evidence that any US firms even loaded 8x57 JS commercially prior to post WWII and so far I have been unable to establish that. I don’t believe that they market existed here for either surplus or commercial (domestic made) 8x57JS. I might believe that some of the big city sporting goods houses like A&F may have imported some by RWS and the like but even then I bet most bought here was the rimmed version for drilling’s, another great design that never really caught on here.

[bodes]

Phil, I misread your post, thinking you were stating WW1 German ammunition was indeed imported into this country in the 20's and 30's.....And by minimizing the fighting force of the Reichswehr, perhaps all extra available munitions were treated as war booty and confiscated (my summation based on what I thought you meant)?....My bad...Bodes

[N.C. Wyeth]

I don’t disagree with any of the comments posted but getting back to these 1918 dated cartridge cases I tend to believe that they were bring back WWI and hold some very slight possibility the same surplus 8mm ammo was imported into the US or Canada after WWI and sold in the 20s and 30s. I will admit that I have never researched the issue and was not alive then to know. I feel pretty confident in saying that 1918 ammo was found in Germany in any quantities and imported after1945. I guess ultimately it would impossible to say for sure without talking to the person who left it there.

I can tell you with all confidence, that my Grandfather hunted in rural KY with a Gewehr 98 - before the outbreak of WW2 in the US. When he was finally enlisted to fight in WW2, he came back home from the Pacific with an Arisaka rifle (as well as his M2 carbine!) - and continued to use both rifles for hunting. My Uncle taught me his hunting skills with a sporterized K98 - and at that time, still had his Fathers G98 and Arisaka. That was a long time ago - but after reading all of these comments, I am not so surprised to hear about an 8MM WW1 shell casing found in the rural Midwest. I bet if one were to search the fields around Stanford, KY - you might be forunate enough to find a few more my Grandafther left behind.

[phild]

I can tell you with all confidence, that my Grandfather hunted in rural KY with a Gewehr 98 - before the outbreak of WW2 in the US. When he was finally enlisted to fight in WW2, he came back home from the Pacific with an Arisaka rifle (as well as his M2 carbine!) - and continued to use both rifles for hunting. My Uncle taught me his hunting skills with a sporterized K98 - and at that time, still had his Fathers G98 and Arisaka. That was a long time ago - but after reading all of these comments, I am not so surprised to hear about an 8MM WW1 shell casing found in the rural Midwest. I bet if one were to search the fields around Stanford, KY - you might be forunate enough to find a few more my Grandafther left behind.

That is interesting antidotal information and I have certainly seen a number of G98 and Kar98a that I know were brought or shipped back after the War (the great one) by doughboys and not “bond” rifles nor the rifles sent over by France in the boxcars well after the war. That said, it would be interesting to know the source of the ammo that your grandfather used, be it commercial or military. I think the answer that bodes was seeking is that either a resident or guest of the farm that he found the cases on was hunting or plinking with a WWI bringback “98” and likely cartridges brought back with it, with some ounce of possibility that surplus 8mm may have been obtained in the states.

[bodes]

I think the answer that bodes was seeking is that either a resident or guest of the farm that he found the cases on was hunting or plinking with a WWI bringback “98” and likely cartridges brought back with it, with some ounce of possibility that surplus 8mm may have been obtained in the states.

Interestingly enough, the house was located about a mile from village limits of a nearby town....There is however a big hill sitting between the two....Often hunters in the area would use slug rounds with their shotguns.....I certainly have found my share of spent shotgun shells....As youths, it wasn't unusual for us to head out the front door in town toting hunting rifles/shotguns, walking out into the woods....Forty plus years later, I wouldn't attempt that unless I wanted the police showing up....But getting back to Phil's premise, I can imagine the resident stepping out the front door shooting a deer, or plucking one from the front porch.....Bodes

[bodes]

I can tell you with all confidence, that my Grandfather hunted in rural KY with a Gewehr 98 - before the outbreak of WW2 in the US. When he was finally enlisted to fight in WW2, he came back home from the Pacific with an Arisaka rifle (as well as his M2 carbine!) - and continued to use both rifles for hunting. My Uncle taught me his hunting skills with a sporterized K98 - and at that time, still had his Fathers G98 and Arisaka. That was a long time ago - but after reading all of these comments, I am not so surprised to hear about an 8MM WW1 shell casing found in the rural Midwest. I bet if one were to search the fields around Stanford, KY - you might be forunate enough to find a few more my Grandafther left behind.

Very interesting!...Thanks for posting, Bodes

[N.C. Wyeth]

That is interesting antidotal information and I have certainly seen a number of G98 and Kar98a that I know were brought or shipped back after the War (the great one) by doughboys and not “bond” rifles nor the rifles sent over by France in the boxcars well after the war. That said, it would be interesting to know the source of the ammo that your grandfather used, be it commercial or military. I think the answer that bodes was seeking is that either a resident or guest of the farm that he found the cases on was hunting or plinking with a WWI bringback “98” and likely cartridges brought back with it, with some ounce of possibility that surplus 8mm may have been obtained in the states.

Unfortunately I will never get an answer about what type of ammunition he used, as both my Grandfather and Uncle are long since passed away. I would bet one of my Cousins still has that rifle - but he would not be a very good source of information, as for as long as I can recall he has never a very good source for anything. I do recall moments when both my Uncle and my Grandfather would talk about how much they loved their German rifles, and swore they were the best thing around for deer hunting. There is a slight possibility that I could dig deeper into the past, and see if anyone knows how my Grandfather obtained that rifle - but I don't know how much benefit that would provide. This does bring up a question - as he was much too young to have been the in the Great War, and could not have brought the rifle back himself. Maybe he had an older relative that did - but that I don't know. I will have to inquire with my Dad, and see if he can find anything out. Bringing back some very fond memories now, that is for certain.

[bodes]

Unfortunately I will never get an answer about what type of ammunition he used, as both my Grandfather and Uncle are long since passed away. I would bet one of my Cousins still has that rifle - but he would not be a very good source of information, as for as long as I can recall he has never a very good source for anything. I do recall moments when both my Uncle and my Grandfather would talk about how much they loved their German rifles, and swore they were the best thing around for deer hunting. There is a slight possibility that I could dig deeper into the past, and see if anyone knows how my Grandfather obtained that rifle - but I don't know how much benefit that would provide. This does bring up a question - as he was much too young to have been the in the Great War, and could not have brought the rifle back himself. Maybe he had an older relative that did - but that I don't know. I will have to inquire with my Dad, and see if he can find anything out. Bringing back some very fond memories now, that is for certain.

And I will have to see what I can find out about the homestead where I found the casing....As luck would have it, I know a local historian who has studied the past when it comes to the area....Perhaps he could tell me whether/not a Great War veteran or their family resided there....Bodes

[Sturmvogel]

Photo

Hello Bodes, sorry for hijacking your thread, but I tried to contact you via PM a few times, but your inbox has been full. I wanted to ask you about a photo that I contacted you about in 2015. Hope to hear from you. Thanks, Roger

[alfred213]

great days 1960s

hi guys
i started on rail road bring home 56.00 a week with four kids but we managed to get by people were different in those days especially after wars end if any of these people had an extra piece of bread they would share it with us as far as buying cheap guns from ye ole hunter if you could afford every time i see the back side of superman comics books there he was ye ole hunters add and he shipped the pistols right to your door u.s. mail poop today it wouldnt happen thanks guys god bless have a great day andy