SS degan question possible Police

[waffendude]

Hi guys
From what I've read on SS degens the lower fitting on the bottom of the scabbard is pressed on. The police degens have screws. This degen looks like there was a police eagle where the rune roundal is. I can see where the wings were, and it has screws also the lower scabbard fitting
Am I on the right track in my thoughts this was a police degen originally?
Thank you
Mike

[Jeff Nichols]

I don't think there was a police eagle there, looks like a chip in the lacquered paint that gives it the illusion of an eagle. From the minimal pics provided looks like a good SS officer degen to me, they could have pressed or screwed on fittings. would like to see the whole sword.

[waffendude]

I don't think there was a police eagle there, looks like a chip in the lacquered paint that gives it the illusion of an eagle. From the minimal pics provided looks like a good SS officer degen to me, they could have pressed or screwed on fittings. would like to see the whole sword.

Hi Jeff
Chips on both sides or am I not seeing it correctly ?
I'll see about some more photos, WKC is the maker, did they make SS officers degens or just Police?
Thanks
Mike

[Frogprince]

Sometimes it’s not just the area for the emblem which can be camouflaged. Fooling around with the grips can also cause the grip wire to be dislocated and/or visibly disturbed where it should not be. And I’m seeing what look like air gaps that might be evidence of some reworking. FP

[waffendude]

Sometimes it’s not just the area for the emblem which can be camouflaged. Fooling around with the grips can also cause the grip wire to be dislocated and/or visibly disturbed where it should not be. And I’m seeing what look like air gaps that might be evidence of some reworking. FP

I see what you mean on the airgaps
Makes me think even more now that it was a police degen originally... but is the rune disc/button original?

[Reichsword]

I don't recall ever seeing a WKC SS Degen, police yes, but not SS. From the looks of the grip button IMO, it's been fooled with.

[Polizeidegen]

I don’t believe WKC produced an SS Officer degen. The grip area also looks suspicious!

[DALE ELLIS]

I don't ever remember seeing a WKC SS officer degen but I do have a WKC police officer with the SS runes pommel cap. Which If I remember correctly is shown in the catalog. The sword in question does look very suspicious and it really looks like there was a eagle in the grip to me before the button.

[GaryMJ]

Normally Police emblems are mounted higher than the SS roundel, and half way between the wires, whereas the SS is usually lower and have the wires aligning top and bottom of the roundel, basically a half rung lower. This looks like a possible Police hilt with a SS roundel inserted.

Best, Gary

[ENGLISH BOB]

S.S.Fuhrer degen should be maker marked to Peter Daniel Krebs , PMD for Paul Muller Dachau or a plain un maker marked blade.
This looks like a reworked Police sword to me and the bottom scabbard fitting should be devoid of any screws which this clearly isn't...To many red flags for me..

Cheers
Bob

[DALE ELLIS]

S.S.Fuhrer degen should be maker marked to Peter Daniel Krebs , PMD for Paul Muller Dachau or a plain un maker marked blade.
This looks like a reworked Police sword to me and the bottom scabbard fitting should be devoid of any screws which this clearly isn't...To many red flags for me..

Cheers
Bob

Bob, I would have to disagree with both of your statements. While they are true most of the time there are exceptions in makers and screws.

[BobI]

HMM,
Well, it is a plated later sword, I can see the upper part of the hilt. In that case we know it is not an early PDK/unmarked sword with the stepped fitting. It does have a NS runic device which looks slightly off. Oddly, "from the pictures" it looks like the lacquer has flaked off "exactly" where the wings would be on a police sword. It would take a "hands on", there is a chance the grip was placed on a police sword, I have seen that done before but the odds are "in hand" it is bad.
I have seen early SS swords with screws too so that is not an issue for me.

[Texasuberalles]

S.S.Fuhrer degen should be maker marked to Peter Daniel Krebs , PMD for Paul Muller Dachau or a plain un maker marked blade.
This looks like a reworked Police sword to me and the bottom scabbard fitting should be devoid of any screws which this clearly isn't...To many red flags for me..

Cheers
Bob

I kept this from a post long ago it was not MY post....


When I was actively collecting SS degens I compiled a database of degens offered by Tom Wittmann in his printed lists. This publication ran from 1986 to 2002. I feel the information to be statisticaly significant.
I referenced Tom's inventory numbers, not item numbers, to avoid duplication. Tom W's descriptions by type of degen remained reasonably standard over the 16 year period, which was a big help. I would like to share the results here, but just in summary. "Degens" includes officer and EM in total.

P D Krebs 41 degens
No TM 47
Dachau 29

Alcoso 2
Clemen & Jung 1
Eickhorn 1
Holler 3
Rath 2
Weyersberg 1
WKC 3

TOTAL 130 degens

I realise that everyone has had their own valid experiences' in turning up SS degens out of the weeds with various maker marks.
However, very few of us can match the volumes handled by a major dealer over an extended period of years.

Regarding "SS proofmarks".
The Krebs and no TM degens were proof stamped on one or both parts, with only one exception.
None of the Dachau degens were proved, as was the norm for these.
Of the 13 other degens by assorted makers, seven degens had proofmarks.

Within this very small group of thirteen assorted maker marked degens were several major players, whom one would reasonably have expected to have significant representation in the above survey, had they in fact been authorised to supply the SS degen.

I stand by my advice to Steven; if you want just the one SS degen then get a Krebs or no Tm, preferably with SS proofmarks. Jmho based on observation and analysis.

[Craig H]

I recall one of the characteristics of these Is the grip wire material . I was thinking aluminum on Polizei ? Don't know If that applies to later production .

[Reichsword]

I kept this from a post long ago it was not MY post....


When I was actively collecting SS degens I compiled a database of degens offered by Tom Wittmann in his printed lists. This publication ran from 1986 to 2002. I feel the information to be statisticaly significant.
I referenced Tom's inventory numbers, not item numbers, to avoid duplication. Tom W's descriptions by type of degen remained reasonably standard over the 16 year period, which was a big help. I would like to share the results here, but just in summary. "Degens" includes officer and EM in total.

P D Krebs 41 degens
No TM 47
Dachau 29

Alcoso 2
Clemen & Jung 1
Eickhorn 1
Holler 3
Rath 2
Weyersberg 1
WKC 3

TOTAL 130 degens

I realise that everyone has had their own valid experiences' in turning up SS degens out of the weeds with various maker marks.
However, very few of us can match the volumes handled by a major dealer over an extended period of years.

Regarding "SS proofmarks".
The Krebs and no TM degens were proof stamped on one or both parts, with only one exception.
None of the Dachau degens were proved, as was the norm for these.
Of the 13 other degens by assorted makers, seven degens had proofmarks.

Within this very small group of thirteen assorted maker marked degens were several major players, whom one would reasonably have expected to have significant representation in the above survey, had they in fact been authorised to supply the SS degen.

I stand by my advice to Steven; if you want just the one SS degen then get a Krebs or no Tm, preferably with SS proofmarks. Jmho based on observation and analysis.

Thank you for sharing your findings TB. Great work and much appreciated.