SS Himmler daggers question

[rajko84]

How many SS himmler daggers they issued? Do we know the number? Somewhere I read only 200-300. Anybody knows?
Thank you for your help.
Regards RD

[Br. James]

Two sources offer responses to your question -- Thomas Wittmann and Ralf Siegert:

In his chapter titled "The Honor Dagger of Himmler (Himmler Dagger)" in his resource volume "The Service Daggers of the SS," B&D Publishing, 2014, Siegert states on page 259 that "Himmler initially ordered 200 daggers at the Solingen-based company Carl Eickhorn. Eickhorn was the only manufacturer of this dagger type." These daggers were originally intended to be awarded to "the members of the SS who took part in the removal of Ernst Röhm and another 14 SA-Leaders in the "Night of the Long Knives" 30 June 1934."

Further on that page, Siegert states: "Regarding the total production number, Thomas T. Wittmann mentions approximately 2,500 daggers ("Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swards of the German SS," 2003, self-published). Supposedly the daggers were also given to SS-members with high loyalty to Himmler (contrary to the Röhm daggers which were given for early membership). This would explain why from time to time examples of this rare dagger surface in Germany and other countries."

I hope these quotes are helpful to you. Perhaps some of our colleagues here can provide addition information.

Br. James

[rajko84]

Thank you James

Two sources offer responses to your question -- Thomas Wittmann and Ralf Siegert:

In his chapter titled "The Honor Dagger of Himmler (Himmler Dagger)" in his resource volume "The Service Daggers of the SS," B&D Publishing, 2014, Siegert states on page 259 that "Himmler initially ordered 200 daggers at the Solingen-based company Carl Eickhorn. Eickhorn was the only manufacturer of this dagger type." These daggers were originally intended to be awarded to "the members of the SS who took part in the removal of Ernst Röhm and another 14 SA-Leaders in the "Night of the Long Knives" 30 June 1934."

Further on that page, Siegert states: "Regarding the total production number, Thomas T. Wittmann mentions approximately 2,500 daggers ("Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swards of the German SS," 2003, self-published). Supposedly the daggers were also given to SS-members with high loyalty to Himmler (contrary to the Röhm daggers which were given for early membership). This would explain why from time to time examples of this rare dagger surface in Germany and other countries."

I hope these quotes are helpful to you. Perhaps some of our colleagues here can provide addition information.

Br. James

[RossK]

Hi All:

Through my National Archives research, I have found that Himmler was giving out his honor daggers as early as May 1934 refuting that they were made up initially for award to Night of the Long Knives participants. I have in my collection the only one I know of that was actually awarded to a participant. He was on Himmler's personal staff at the Brown House in Munich at the time of the "revolt" and was awarded the dagger by Himmler before that following September. It is the only Himmler Ehrendolch that I have seen that has the recipients name/SS number engraved on it. It was also upgraded to a 1936 chained scabbard since the recipient was obviously very proud of it. By the way, Himmler's gift lists show that he only gave these daggers out in 1934. Siegert found multiple correspondences later asking Himmler's staff about what to do with those remaining daggers. Perhaps the high quality of these existing daggers today is because many came from these that were never distributed.

Enjoy!
RossK

[den70]

Hi All:

Through my National Archives research, I have found that Himmler was giving out his honor daggers as early as May 1934 refuting that they were made up initially for award to Night of the Long Knives participants. I have in my collection the only one I know of that was actually awarded to a participant. He was on Himmler's personal staff at the Brown House in Munich at the time of the "revolt" and was awarded the dagger by Himmler before that following September. It is the only Himmler Ehrendolch that I have seen that has the recipients name/SS number engraved on it. It was also upgraded to a 1936 chained scabbard since the recipient was obviously very proud of it. By the way, Himmler's gift lists show that he only gave these daggers out in 1934. Siegert found multiple correspondences later asking Himmler's staff about what to do with those remaining daggers. Perhaps the high quality of these existing daggers today is because many came from these that were never distributed.

Enjoy!
RossK

Ross, could you share with us at least some of these documents? Or do you prepare them for your book or website?

[Br. James]

Good information, Ross, though I guess it's possible that Himmler had a small number of these daggers originally made up early in 1934 and, even though he had already presented a few of them to special people not involved with the Röhm Affair, he may have given a fair number of them out in July/August of that year to SS-Men who had assisted in the 'Operation Hummingbird' matter, which of course involved many more victims than just those who were at the Bad Wiessee Resort that night. And that may have necessitated Himmler ordering more from Eickhorn. We'll probably never know all the details!

Br. James

[james m]

There was a lot on confusion in earlier years due to the benchmarks found on these daggers. Taking Himmler's original order into consideration along with the numerical markings one of the noted authors on 3rd Reich daggers concluded that only 200 were made in total. Then it was noted that these "benchmarks" never exceeded a single digit and were repeated. There was also a big debate in earlier time regarding the smooth tail vs. the serrated tail Eickhorn logo with some claiming the smooth tails were post war reproductions. Subsequent studies refuted this and now both are accepted as war period examples.
The last I heard Wittmann's number of 2500 is generally accepted as the probable total number produced.
It is still a very desirable addition to anyone's collection!
Jim

[MarcGB]

Hi all,

I always wondered why in such a "short" production of Himmler daggers we can find both serrated and smooth tail Eickhorn logos.

Would it be possible that first production (say 200) where produced with serrated tail and further produced with smooth tail?

All what i could find is that both logos were used in 1934.

Thanks for your attention.

Marc

[Br. James]

As we see on the logo chart provided by "GermanDaggers.com" the Eickhorn firm used both the serrated and the smooth tail logo during the period 1933-35, and we understand that the first of these special Himmler Honor Daggers were awarded prior to the Night of Long Knives in mid-1934, so this says to me that there were probably a number of small orders placed by Himmler's office with the Eickhorn firm during the 1933-35 period, and those daggers would have been produced with whatever the current logo that cutlery firm was using at the time...hence, the appearance of the Himmler Honor Dagger with a blade showing each of those logos within the group of blades produced for each order.

Br. James

[MarcGB]

Thanks James for your answer.


Ross, wich is the logo used in your Himmler's?

Thanks in avance.

Best,

Marc

Hi All:

Through my National Archives research, I have found that Himmler was giving out his honor daggers as early as May 1934 refuting that they were made up initially for award to Night of the Long Knives participants. I have in my collection the only one I know of that was actually awarded to a participant. He was on Himmler's personal staff at the Brown House in Munich at the time of the "revolt" and was awarded the dagger by Himmler before that following September. It is the only Himmler Ehrendolch that I have seen that has the recipients name/SS number engraved on it. It was also upgraded to a 1936 chained scabbard since the recipient was obviously very proud of it. By the way, Himmler's gift lists show that he only gave these daggers out in 1934. Siegert found multiple correspondences later asking Himmler's staff about what to do with those remaining daggers. Perhaps the high quality of these existing daggers today is because many came from these that were never distributed.

Enjoy!
RossK

[Bulldog]

Hi all,

Would it be possible that first production (say 200) where produced with serrated tail and further produced with smooth tail?

Marc

I think this would have been possible Marc, it was up to the line manager who was in charge of the current production run which maker mark was used, so a new production run could have meant that a different version of the 33-35 mark was used.

Russ.

[rajko84]

This type of maker mark is on my dagger

[Br. James]

According to the logo chart provided by "GermanDaggers.com" there were as many as NINE DIFFERENT LOGOS used by the Eickhorn firm during the period 1933-35, so the likelihood of different logos showing up on Himmler Honor Dagger blades is quite wide!

Br. James

[Br. James]

If the Himmler Honor Dagger continued to be used as a presentation piece for "SS-members with high loyalty to Himmler," as noted by Tom Wittmann, then one must also consider that there were FIVE MORE LOGOS employed by the Eickhorn firm during the period 1935-42, as itemized on the "GermanDaggers.com" chart.

Br. James

[busterz111]

Tom Wittman is Just a salesman....After years of believing his Bull**** its clear he is just into this stuff for MONEY