"Christmas" SA full röhm dagger

[Mac 66]

Id like an opinion from someone who will see it live, not only on pictures, and that collector has an original E.P&S. Prototype in his collection

Sounds like a very good idea to me

[Frogprince]

Sounds like a very good idea to me

Likewise depending on the example he has. This example if it was an antique gun at best (IMO) would be rated as poor/relic condition that would not be suitable as a reference example. FP

[Serge M.]

As usual, we don't get the follow-up. But that's OK, if someone wants this 'rarity' , they can go here on Allegro where coltpython is selling it. as original, naturally.

https://allegro.pl/unikat-prototypow...70598#imglayer

I'm starting to think he's in the wrong collectors club.

[busterz111]

Hey Colt python....The dagger is 100% Bad...Lots of collectors have seen it here,MANY with many years of expertise....SO take your Dagger and Stuff it, Idiot...Idiota

[Lonewolf]

dagger

I have seen this type of damage to dagger blades before and in every instance they were found submerged in water.
Since this is a Rohm blade it wouldn't be the first time one of these got thrown off a bridge.

[busterz111]

I have seen this type of damage to dagger blades before and in every instance they were found submerged in water.
Since this is a Rohm blade it wouldn't be the first time one of these got thrown off a bridge.

yes i agree but everything being sold out of poland has this type of exagerated wear.

[Frogprince]

I seriously doubt that kind of scenario for the item in question, and look at that explanation as just another rationalization trying to justify its appearance (IMO). I went back and took another look at the images (not as good as 'in hand' but still I think adequate). Looking like etching on a piece of junk after the fact (then camouflaged). "Distressing" a sometimes common tactic or SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) for some fakers on all sorts of items - knives, daggers, swords, etc. FP

[tk99]

Everyone is focusing on the blade. I would like to step back on focus on the entire dagger. Do you all agree that the grip is real? If so, where would the "faker" find one by itself?

I think for a Christmas dagger, the value is in the grip. It's the eagle and handle that makes this unique.

As for the blade, while I am not knowledgeable with the science of corrosion, I do see that certain Christmas Rohm characteristics are there.

The scabbard on a Christmas dagger should also be investigated.

Overall, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss this dagger.

[Serge M.]

Everyone is focusing on the blade. I would like to step back on focus on the entire dagger. Do you all agree that the grip is real? If so, where would the "faker" find one by itself?

I think for a Christmas dagger, the value is in the grip. It's the eagle and handle that makes this unique.

As for the blade, while I am not knowledgeable with the science of corrosion, I do see that certain Christmas Rohm characteristics are there.

The scabbard on a Christmas dagger should also be investigated.

Overall, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss this dagger.

One should focus first on the most important part, that's the blade.
If that's fake, which I believe it is, and was acid distressed to cover certain features, and make to look that it was a 'River Recovery' type item.

What makes you think the grip is real ? Because it looks like it might be ?
Where would they find a original Christmas dagger grip missing the original blade, only to be replaced by a fake blade on a original grip ?
Where would they find a original Early scabbard ? Off of a early non-Christmas Epack dagger. Not hard to do.

What next will we be asking ? Perhaps if the scabbard screws are real ?

The value, in any blade is it's complete originality of all parts being period made and period assembled. The value is not in the grip (taking the assumption it's original).
Making a wood grip is no problem. The grip emblem is also easy. See how they make fake medals, and insignia.

These type of blades, and all sort of never before seen variations of rare examples can be regularly found on sites such as Allegro and Militaria 3-2-1.
For the most part they are fakes. Some with stories being found in 'under-stairway in old house', 'Hidden in leaky attic', you name it, and they will give you a story, to make one try to believe that it goes back to the period of WW2. When in reality, it was created in recent times.

[tk99]

Hello Serge, no disrespect but I disagree. Unless you've taken it to a lab, the acid is just a speculation. I admit that I don't know the answer but even if it was acid, please tell me what was wrong with the underlying blade and inscription? Like yourself, I have also hand inspected more than one Christmas dagger. I see more evidence that it is than not.

The grip is correct. Again, I respectfully challenge you to tell me why you think the grip is wrong? My opinion, just because the stamp was different on this one, it doesn't means that there might be other variations? In fact, the E pack Christmas dagger that I have seen has another stamp pattern. So long as its main attributes are the same, the stamping doesn't concern me.

[busterz111]

TK99...Its really not as simple as your making it...Serge is 100% correct. This is Bad on a few points and when the evidence is weighed it all points to Bad. There is Pits in the casting of the Crossguard,The Fit of wood on the Grip is awful...the Eagle inset into the grip is Terrible..When acid is Used To distress Steel it makes a Grey color thats hard to replicate,The scabbard may be Real but who cares...Its No good

[busterz111]

Actually I did take a step back and looked at the dagger and its still a piece of garbage but just from further away

[Frogprince]

Not ‘in hand’ here is a problem that I have with the blade. When iron/steel is severely corroded/attacked - it can do something called exfoliation wherein the metal separates into layers like an onion. These layers can break away exposing the layers beneath. Sometimes there can be channels that are similar to rock formations in the desert southwest where the water cuts away the base material leaving a table-like plateau. In the images I see the “tables” and the undercut channels which appear to be shadowed. My sense of the images being that the etching looks like it’s at the bottom of the channels (varies depending on the location) applied post-manufacture (ie: PW). Of course ‘in hand’ it may show something else, but I’m not convinced from the images posted, versus an attempt to add significant value to a beater/relic (IMO) artifact with little value other than perhaps as a curiosity. FP

[Frogprince]

TK99...Its really not as simple as your making it...Serge is 100% correct. This is Bad on a few points and when the evidence is weighed it all points to Bad. There is Pits in the casting of the Crossguard,The Fit of wood on the Grip is awful...the Eagle inset into the grip is Terrible..When acid is Used To distress Steel it makes a Grey color thats hard to replicate,The scabbard may be Real but who cares...Its No good

Point noted, different acids give different results and more than one type may have been used. FP

[Serge M.]

Hello Serge, no disrespect but I disagree. Unless you've taken it to a lab, the acid is just a speculation. I admit that I don't know the answer but even if it was acid, please tell me what was wrong with the underlying blade and inscription? Like yourself, I have also hand inspected more than one Christmas dagger. I see more evidence that it is than not.

The grip is correct. Again, I respectfully challenge you to tell me why you think the grip is wrong? My opinion, just because the stamp was different on this one, it doesn't means that there might be other variations? In fact, the E pack Christmas dagger that I have seen has another stamp pattern. So long as its main attributes are the same, the stamping doesn't concern me.

Hello tk99, Yes, the acid treatment is speculation. However, I've seen Attic/River/Ground found daggers, and they don't look like that with the corresponding condition of the scabbard and the hilt.
Take a look at the enlarged photo Fred has provided of the 'Rohm' part of the etched dedication. IMO, that is not correct for a E-pack Rohm dedication. It's close, but not close enough. Note the 'R' in Rohm.
So, IMHO, the dedication is post-war applied. Also, see what Damasco has stated previously regarding the etching. Bob I's post is also a interesting observation. Both these guys are 'Very Experienced'.

The crossguards are not marked internally in the manner of how I have seen Original E-pack Christmas dagger's crossguards marked.

The grip: From what shown, it exhibits rounding of crossguard mating contact edges. Which indicates (to me) that grip was non-factory fitted to these crossguards.

I don't expect you, or anyone else for that matter to agree with my observations, and or my opinion. Discussion is good. I do have reason to believe my opinion is correct on this example. I do have photos provided to me from a collector who has what I consider a original e-pack Christmas dagger. However, I'm not going to share that here so fakers can improve on their product in the next version (nor do I have permission to do so if I wanted).

We can respectfully disagree on the originality of this dagger. These distressed daggers seem to be originating from Czech Republic or Poland. You can probably get a Full Rohm SS from these sources, but I doubt they will be original.

-Serge