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"Christmas" SA full röhm dagger

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    #31
    By just looking at the posted pictures, I must say that this is a difficult case.

    Here are some observations:

    - I agree that the corrosion looks unusual. I have seen many postwar made blades, which were brought (artificially aged) to comparable conditions. Even recently made fakes of HJ-knifes are brought to this condition and sold as "relics found on a famous battleground". This allows to hide the "red flags" like: wrong cross grain, wrongly executed maker marks, badly etched dedications, ...etc.

    - On the other hand, I have never seen fake blades of the Pack Christmas dagger so far, but only fake Eickhorn blades with the large double oval mark.

    - Normally, when a dagger blade oxidises in a natural way like this, it takes exposure to a humid environment for many years. But this humid environment is on the contrary good for the wood. Though the grip of this dagger appears to have seriously dried out: just look at the guard fittings... Wood in a humid environment does not shrinks, it expands!

    - A very big doubt here, comes -in my opinion- from the story with the 1945 dated letter. Why would anyone preciously keep the letter, but neglect the dagger, described in it, to rusting in and outside its scabbard like this? That does not make any sense.
    Or was it brought to the US in this condition? I don't think that any GI would have been interested in a dagger in this condition back in 1945. Unlike us collectors now, he could not know it was something extremely rare...

    - Finally, the other similar, same bad conditioned dagger, offered by Wittmann is also a bad sign in my opinion: it appears that a couple of badly executed fake blades have been aged artificially and married to original parts (guards, scabbards and grip parts) and offered to the market...

    So, I do not condemn this dagger, but I have doubts...

    Best regards,

    Victorman

    Comment

      #32
      A good faith question for those more knowledgeable than myself. Assume the dagger & scabbard were kept together, although not necessarily one inside the other. Why would the scabbard (which is much thinner & softer then the blade) be as corroded, & in some spots more so, than the blade itself?

      As a general rule, one should forget the letter & any anecdote associated with the dagger. It's true that they add depth & history to an item if they are correct, but the item must stand on its own regarding questions about its existence. A seasoned collector buys the item & not the story, nicht wahr?

      Comment

        #33
        The letter could be added to any SA dagger because it is described only the length and the motto, so the letter is just an add from the seller of the dagger, nothing unusual.
        Please look at the picture below, look at the blade near the crossguard,.
        It looks like the whole blade was in the scabbard except that little part, and got much worse corrosion.
        There are some substances that react only with steel, that could be reason why the nickel parts are not destroyed and the wooden grip is in good condition.
        Attached Files

        Comment

          #34
          Originally posted by Coltpython View Post
          It looks like the whole blade was in the scabbard except that little part, and got much worse corrosion.
          There are some substances that react only with steel, that could be reason why the nickel parts are not destroyed and the wooden grip is in good condition.
          That's the point. The scabbard is steel also, albeit thinner & not as well made as a blade. So you'd expect to see less damage to a hardened steel blade than a scabbard. But that's just the way I'm looking at it, although it does seem rather obvious.

          Comment

            #35
            I have spoken to my friend that was studying metallurgy, and he suspects that the blade was preserved with not propper type of oil, and it got in reaction with oxygen and did this to the blade.
            I think that it might be possible, and that's why there are those black stains, as remainings of that "bad oil" or grease.

            Comment

              #36
              Originally posted by Coltpython View Post
              I have spoken to my friend that was studying metallurgy, and he suspects that the blade was preserved with not propper type of oil, and it got in reaction with oxygen and did this to the blade.
              I think that it might be possible, and that's why there are those black stains, as remainings of that "bad oil" or grease.
              Yes it is called ( rust, corrosion, oxidation )
              But this has been artificially done by chemicals or other recipe .
              The blade aging while good is incorrect.. The etching is not from the early 30s no matter the condition of the blade..
              Regards:

              Comment

                #37
                What about the other parts?
                What about the grip and its eagle?
                This is not an easy grip to find to assemble a parts dagger with...
                The eagle is authentic and attached in Pack's way.

                Comment

                  #38
                  I like to see untouched distressed daggers (and swords etc.) because they can sometimes tell a story about how the various items were made, and what was used. With tight fitting TR era blades/scabbards normally doing a reasonably good job protecting the blade. Some industrial processes use acid to clean items before final processing (that does not usually cause this kind off damage). With that said neither of the daggers looks to me like normal aging with the same to be said (IMO) for the current condition of the blades that to me looks "contrived" (ie: bogus). FP

                  Comment

                    #39
                    The original Daggers are all finely Made...The one wittman has looks also to be Bad. These were early in production when quality counted...And they were Presented to Upper echelon SA men not just the ordinary brownshirt.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Looking at the pic on post # 33 where the blade meets the crossguard makes me think its been eating away with Acid & not normal corrosion through time like Rust !


                      Dodgy stuff going on here imo .

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Mac 66 View Post

                        Dodgy stuff going on here imo .

                        I agree. In any case, with all these authenticity questions, this dagger will not qualify to be offered on E-stand.

                        -Serge

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Thank you all for your opinions, i will go with it for an inspection to a collector
                          to Hamburg, and then i will post what are his opinions on this dagger.
                          I bought it really cheap so we will see what it really is.
                          Best,
                          Michael.

                          Comment

                            #43

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Coltpython View Post
                              Thank you all for your opinions, i will go with it for an inspection to a collector
                              to Hamburg, and then i will post what are his opinions on this dagger.
                              I bought it really cheap so we will see what it really is.
                              Best,
                              Michael.
                              Why does a opinion from Hamburg make any difference??
                              It is sort of like the old saying (vote early and vote often)
                              or (if at 1st you don't succeed try try again)

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Id like an opinion from someone who will see it live, not only on pictures, and that collector has an original E.P&S. Prototype in his collection

                                Comment

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