rare HJ Honour-Dagger / Ehrendolch

[GraveDigga]

Hello my name is Tino from Germany - actually i`m in the german www.militaria-fundforum.de, but respect, wh awards is a top forum

The following HJ Honourdagger (not Leaderdagger) is from a friend of mine - whats your opinion about originality.
Its the rare variant with the two inscription

THX Tino

why i can´t attached pics ????

so please look here: http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/thread.php?threadid=24042&threadview=0&hilight=&hi lightuser=0&page=2

[F. J. Stephens]

GraveDigga (Tino)

Hello Tino,

I tried to access the sites in your forum loetter, but with no success. Could you please send to me by e-mail the photo of your HJ Honour Dagger, and I will post a reply/opinion back on this web site.

Many thanks,

F. J. Stephens

Hello my name is Tino from Germany - actually i`m in the german www.militaria-fundforum.de, but respect, wh awards is a top forum

The following HJ Honourdagger (not Leaderdagger) is from a friend of mine - whats your opinion about originality.
Its the rare variant with the two inscription

THX Tino

why i can´t attached pics ????

so please look here: http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/thread.php?threadid=24042&threadview=0&hilight=&hi lightuser=0&page=2

[F. J. Stephens]

GraveDigga (Tino)

Sorry, Tino,

I forgot to give you my e-mail address, it is:
frederickjstephens@yahoo.co.uk

Best regards

Frederick

Hello Tino,

I tried to access the sites in your forum loetter, but with no success. Could you please send to me by e-mail the photo of your HJ Honour Dagger, and I will post a reply/opinion back on this web site.

Many thanks,

F. J. Stephens

[GraveDigga]

Sorry, Tino,

I forgot to give you my e-mail address, it is:
frederickjstephens@yahoo.co.uk

Best regards

Frederick

you got a mail - and thx for your help - but sorry my english it`s not the best

I will hope you can help me

Reagards Tino

[schönbeck]

http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/th...tuser=0&page=2

heres a working link,

[tobau]

I cant see pics , about i am not a member there .What i can read is this a fake or a complete fantasy piece-fake.

[schönbeck]

the HJ leader dagger is certainly not a fantasy piece.

[tobau]

I don't say this , i say the hj on this forum must be a fake , about the members discussion .

Or have you seen pics , and has an other opinion ?

[schönbeck]

leider kenne ich best nur SA, LW und WH dolchen. Aber will morgen alles durchlesen.

[F. J. Stephens]

Silver HJ Ehrendolch?

This silver HJ Leader Dagger appears to be one of a series of reproduction pieces which started appearing in the 1970s. They are very distinctive in that they have a particular form of HJ eagle on the locket of the scabbard - it is rather like the form of the Eagle on the HJ and BDM Flags, and not like the version found on the standard pattern HJ Leader Dagger.
Some versions of this item have a very thick crossguard (about 50% more than the standard pattern) and the “rope” or segmented design of the crossguard edge is angled so that appears to be sloping towards the right. (The same distinction appears on the band around the pommel, and on the scabbard bands of the scabbard, and the chape). These points are noteworthy because it is the exact mirror-image of the way the decoration appears on the standard HJ Leader Dagger.
I have examined a similar dagger, and I am completely convinced it is a fake item due to the unusual nature of the piece, the quality of the workmanship, and other questionable features. For example, the legend on the reverse of the blade “Fur Verdienst um die Deutsche Jugend” does not seem to me to be correct, when it should more correctly state “.....um die Hitler Jugend”.
There are a number of interesting difference between the example you possess, and the one I have examined. E.g. At the pommel my example had two side screws, whereas you example has a single central screw.
The “rope” band on yours is shallow - although it is correctly inclined to the left side. On my example it is deeper, and incorrectly inclines to the right side,
On the crossguard, your appears to be about normal thickness, but the decoration of the “rope” seems to be too shallow. On my example the crossguard is thicker, but the “rope” decoration inclines to the right.
The Eagle emblems on the scabbard locket are slightly different to each other - but neither is in the normal form for the Standard pattern HJ Leader Dagger.
On the scabbard, the scabbard bands on both your example, and my example, both incline incorrectly to the right.
On the blade (reverse) the legends are performed in the same text font, but the RZM markings are different - mine has the double-ring to the RZM whereas yours has only a single ring - and also no cross-bar to the numeral 7 (of M 7/36).
On the obverse side, the “Blut und Ehre!” motto is set too far down the blade in both cases.
I believe that both of these daggers are fake items, and the reason that they have differences between them is probably because the pieces are mostly hand assembled and finished.
I have encountered other examples, with similar distinctions; and in one case an example with a damascus blade, and in a presentation case - all completely made up!
I hope this information is interesting for you, and not too disappointing. Some of these early copy pieces are now quite collectable in their own right.

Hello my name is Tino from Germany - actually i`m in the german www.militaria-fundforum.de, but respect, wh awards is a top forum

The following HJ Honourdagger (not Leaderdagger) is from a friend of mine - whats your opinion about originality.
Its the rare variant with the two inscription

THX Tino

why i can´t attached pics ????

so please look here: http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/thread.php?threadid=24042&threadview=0&hilight=&hi lightuser=0&page=2

[GraveDigga]

Thanks all for our help especially Frederick - you got a mail

Greetz Tino

[Skipper Greenwade]

Thanks all for our help especially Frederick

I'll second that. Fred, it's great to have you as a Forum Member and -
hopefully - as a frequent visitor the the Edged Weapons Forum.

Best,
Skip

[Larry Lipps]

Fred Stephens sent a couple of reference photos to hopefully clarify some questions on the HJ leader's dagger. Although simple in design, I think it's one of the best looking edged weapons of the era. I'll let Fred add any explanation.

[Larry Lipps]

And another photo. Thanks Fred for the excellent information.

[F. J. Stephens]

rare HJ Honour-Dagger / Ehrendolch

Hi friends,

My thanks to Larry and Skip for getting these images posted on the site, as I wasn't able to do it.

OK, what you see are the images of two different silver HJ daggers, but both are fake, or fantasy pieces. The images in the top photo shows mainly Tino's dagger, together with some detail images from the piece I was working with - to show similarities, as well as differences.

The second photo shows the piece I was researching in greater detail. The point of interest is that even within fake pieces, differences occur due to individual assemblers, or the time when the piece was made up; and even how the piece is made up. There is a lot of hand finishing work on these pieces, and if several people are engaged in it, then that is where prominent differences start to appear - the simple use of a single screw fitting on the facing of the pommel, in Tino's example, whereas my example has two screws set either side.

It just goes to show that even with copy items you can make an exhaustive examination of a piece, come up with some identifying conclusions, and then someone turns up with a similar item that has different features. Still that is what makes the study of reproductions such fun for me.

FJS