Early SS Dove Head Sword Brass ??

[Br. James]

Friends,

If I may insert a comment here, it would be that the text line on this hilt appears to be presented in one of the many typefaces of English Gothic script. The various NSDAP dagger blades which include lines of text present those lines in Fraktur shrift, which is a group of typefaces under the category of German Gothic script. That said, it is not unheard-of to see text in German presented in one of the English Gothic typefaces, either on a document or engraved as a dedication on an NSDAP blade.

The German ligature known as a "scharfes S" or an "Eszett" which is used in the motto on the SS Standard Service Dagger -- "heißt" -- is rendered in Fraktur schrift and therefore employs this ligature. Not all English Gothic typefaces include the scharfes S ligature, which is not used in English, so the only choice would be to engrave this word as "heisst."

But another point made in this current discussion is more important, namely that the use of brass by the SS would be an extremely rare occurrence, if at all. As I understand Himmler's position on these matters, silver was always the preferred color or finish; gilt or brass was outside the range of most SS symbols, and a sabre such as this one with a brass hilt crosses that line.

Cheers,

Br. James

[Frogprince]

Friends,

If I may insert a comment here, it would be that the text line on this hilt appears to be presented in one of the many typefaces of English Gothic script. The various NSDAP dagger blades which include lines of text present those lines in Fraktur shrift, which is a group of typefaces under the category of German Gothic script. That said, it is not unheard-of to see text in German presented in one of the English Gothic typefaces, either on a document or engraved as a dedication on an NSDAP blade.

The German ligature known as a "scharfes S" or an "Eszett" which is used in the motto on the SS Standard Service Dagger -- "heißt" -- is rendered in Fraktur schrift and therefore employs this ligature. Not all English Gothic typefaces include the scharfes S ligature, which is not used in English, so the only choice would be to engrave this word as "heisst."

But another point made in this current discussion is more important, namely that the use of brass by the SS would be an extremely rare occurrence, if at all. As I understand Himmler's position on these matters, silver was always the preferred color or finish; gilt or brass was outside the range of most SS symbols, and a sabre such as this one with a brass hilt crosses that line.

Cheers,

Br. James

Br. James, While I understand the last point being made and do not have a significant difference of opinion there is a problem. Often used as a reason to attach an SS knot and claim that a sword is an "SS" saber. And some even going so far as to claim it was specifically adopted by certain groups which I strongly disagree with, there is a wartime picture of a SS-Obersturmführer wearing a saber that has been identified as a "Prinz Eugen" model by Eickhorn. Which as manufactured has a gold colored finish. That in the photo has a bright looking finish that seems to match the belt buckle which is almost certainly aluminum - so with black and white photos how do you determine the differences if you can't see the details?

My overall point being that while I'm not defending this example - depending on the item you might occasionally find exceptions to the rule. And we as collectors shouldn't always trust what we read or see online. A case in point being the alleged connection of the SS (and some Police) swords and M1936 daggers to Karl Diebitsch because of the SS-Kulturzeichen. The SS-Kulturzeichens are real enough, but there is no (ie: zero) provable link to Diebitsch. FP

[Tundramonkey]

All very good points gentlemen! Thank you for your input! As I am still learning the finer points of this hobby, I am humbled and grateful for the knowledge you guys share on a daily basis! Thank you!!

[DALE ELLIS]

While I would not want this saber in my collection due to the reasons already listed below. The truth is that no one but the engraver and/or associates will ever know if the work was pre May 45 or done yesterday. Not everything the Germans did was perfect and not all the engravings were done by a professional. The best anyone can do is to make an educated guess.

[Br. James]

I couldn't agree more with Dale and FP! Indeed, we know how Sepp Dietrich 'played fast and loose' with the uniform regs -- he chose to wear a Heer eagle on his peaked cap, and I believe he also wore a gilt cord and gilt piping on his cap, and there seem to be photos of him wearing a gilt sleeve eagle on occasion, in both SS and Heer designs! And even Himmler couldn't stop him because of his close personal relationship with "the Chief!"

As always, "Who you know is more important than what you know!"

Cheers,

Br. James

[Frogprince]

While I would not want this saber in my collection due to the reasons already listed below. The truth is that no one but the engraver and/or associates will ever know if the work was pre May 45 or done yesterday. Not everything the Germans did was perfect and not all the engravings were done by a professional. The best anyone can do is to make an educated guess.

Here I would make an observation in that sometimes you can tell if it's freshly done or more recent than the natural patina which is why many fakers fill the engraving with paint, or polish everything to conceal their work along with a few other artificial aging tricks. And some kinds of engraving can be suspect if they use technologies that were not widely available in the TR period time frame. Something that I think that a number of those in collecting at times don't really take into consideration is that Germany was just coming out of a very severe Depression, and that a lot of things that we enjoy simply did not exist or if they did were in limited supply. Which is why the NSAK and NSKK were created to transport party members and bring Germany up to speed with something as basic as having vehicles and drivers that could use them that also had a military application. And more specifically here - while traditional engraving had been around for a very, very, long time. Things like rotary engraving had not which is in sharp contrast to now when $20.00 will purchase a tool and some accessories. FP

[DALE ELLIS]

Thanks guys! FP, I know we have probably been down this road before and I don’t want to get too far off the subject of the SS brass saber but since you brought up “rotary engraving”. I have a couple of Luftwaffe swords straight out of the woodwork and black as night with what looks to be “rotary engraving”. Mine and others I have seen all seem to have the same style and type of unit or school markings. Could it just be just a style of engraving that looks mechanical? I’ve tried an internet search for rotary or mechanical engravers but can’t find the date when they first came out. Hopefully you can shed some light on the subject.

[Frogprince]

Thanks guys! FP, I know we have probably been down this road before and I don’t want to get too far off the subject of the SS brass saber but since you brought up “rotary engraving”. I have a couple of Luftwaffe swords straight out of the woodwork and black as night with what looks to be “rotary engraving”. Mine and others I have seen all seem to have the same style and type of unit or school markings. Could it just be just a style of engraving that looks mechanical? I’ve tried an internet search for rotary or mechanical engravers but can’t find the date when they first came out. Hopefully you can shed some light on the subject.

Without seeing them I can't really comment on what was used. That said, I have some period German Naval items that post manufacture were routinely rotary engraved (machine not hand held) for property/inventory control purposes, that is also seen for some special purpose items that are not datable. There was also a circa 1934 industrial publicity stunt (U.S.) were the Lord's Prayer was machine (industrial size) engraved on a metal disc the size of a pin's head. With the problem not just confined to the engraving machines, but also to the availability of suitable burrs if they were used on steel. With some good examples of the fakes being the hotly contested "Hühnlein" NSKK High Leader daggers that show rotary engraving, and the "Kaltenbrunner" SS sword that was really, really, obvious once some good high definition pictures were taken. FP