Early SS Dove Head Sword Brass ??

[rkrans]

Is this a good one and any guess on fair value? Also Holler blade is excellent as well as scabbard with typical wear. Thanks in advance

[rkrans]

Early SS Dove Head Sword Brass ??

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[rkrans]

Early SS Dove Head Sword Brass ??

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[Tundramonkey]

Sword looks fine but the engraving and runes are not good imho!

[Mike Falsey]

Is the engraving miss spelled ? What is incorrect about the runes ?

[Tundramonkey]

The runes are very poorly executed. Almost seems like it was done with an engraving pen. The double s's in the motto, in my opinion should be represented by the german symbol for the double s, as with the motto on the daggers! From what I've found this occurrence would be evident of post war language reforms and unknowingly executed in the fabrication of this particular sword's motto. Sure would like to hear from some others who have a lot more experience with these!!

[Frogprince]

“Back in the day” when a number of the writers (some were better than others) lacked the knowledge/education/skillset to actually analyze what they were looking at - this sword would very likely have made it into one of the 'Reference Books'. And most readers having only low resolution photos to look at would have accepted their judgement as to an item being a legitimate TR artifact. The Internet and higher resolution imagery changed that, and some are now reevaluated in a positive way, and some are now classified “humpers’ or whatever term you want to use for postwar/now-junk status. With what I’m seeing being the work of an amateur who made mistakes with something like a Dremel © tool on the langet (the tops of the Sigrunen) in combination with other tools. And the cross guard not looking like traditional period German engraving, that I think I know what was probably used - but withholding judgment until some better high resolution photos are taken. FP

[Frogprince]

While it remains to be seen if there are any followup photos, I noticed that what I was seeing on a larger monitor is not that easy to see on the forum. So I selected a portion of the inscription (also inverting the image) so that readers hopefully can get a better sense of the sword. With of course the usual caveats that the images that I've posted may or may not be true representations if seen "in hand". FP

[Serge M.]

A very hard 'sell' on anything Brass with the SS. Nothing like it in Witty SS tome, but there are Silver plated em sword examples.

[F J STEPHENS]

SS Sword in brass ?

Gentlemen,

To add to the general observations being made here, Tundramonkey is correct, the lettering of the word "heisst" is incorrect in that it is more appropriately formed using the ligature character known as the "et-zet" - this looking rather like the letters "t" and "z" combined together, in place of the two "ss" being side by side. Look on an SS dagger blade inscription, where you will see this formed correctly.

The construction of the SS runes on the langet is also very suspect:
1) The runes are out of position, and placed too far to the right side.
2) The lengths of the ascender, and descender, strokes should be equal - but in this case they are not, the top ascender stroke is longer.
3) The rune on the left side is also thinner than that on the right side.

I will attempt to attach a photo to demonstrate the above points.

My attempts to upload are failing. I will ask the Moderator Serge M if he would kindly upload the image I am emailing to him.
FJS

[Serge M.]

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[F J STEPHENS]

Early SS Dovehead Sword

Gentlemen,

Further to Serge posting my image for me, I append my caption relative to the points indicated. It is as follows:
Image A shows the sword as featured on WAF. Image B with the langet and SS runes isolated and straightened.
Image C - close up detail of the langet - the asterisks (*) indicate the top of the ascender on the runes.
Image D - the left side rune has been Photo shop inverted, and now clearly shows the obvious differences in length between the ascender and descender portions of the runes. It is also clear that the rune on the left is slightly "thinner" that the one on the right.

It is my opinion that this is not professional trained workmanship, and highly unlikely to be authentic to the craftsmen of Solingen during the Third Reich.

FJS

[Frogprince]

With the disclaimer that I'm neither a native German speaker, or an expert in the calligraphy/fonts of that time period. It was over 10 years ago that I was made aware of a large number of all sorts of “SS” fakes originating I believe in the Northeast part of the U.S. With the inscription part of the cross guard/knucklebow on the sword resembling to some extent that work on some of the items, and why part of my focus was to get a better look. But now that “heisst” has been brought forward, if memory serves me correctly that is seen on some of the mis-named HJ “Honor bayonets” that are really knives, that I believe to be pre-RZM (that might have been the fakers justification for the choice of a brass saber?). Whereas I would describe the “Heisst” I’m seeing here as an upper case letter “H” and somewhat typical of some of the other kinds of mistakes that the fakers were making. SS sabers themselves IMO being a minefield that has very deep roots that are beyond the practical limits of this discussion. FP

[F J STEPHENS]

SS Sword in brass ?

FP,

You are correct in your observation about the so-called early SS/HJ "Honor Bayonets" with decorated hilt and etched blade - they too feature the SS motto but without the "et-zet" ligature character. I wasn't going to mention this apparent anomaly because I thought it would detract from the immediate discussion on this brass hilted "SS Sabre" .............. but now that you have mentioned it . . . . !

Best regards,
FJS

[Frogprince]

FJS,

I agree. Sometimes too much in the way of technical details can be distracting, with multiple examples coming to mind where some readers had problems and were not as we say: "connecting the dots".

Best Regards, Fred