ASW 43 complete rig, unit marked?

[Spencer PK]

This just came in. Matching, beautiful red grips, excellent overall condition. SN 8585s, I believe. Frog is deeply marked on the back with something that looks like a unit but I can't be sure. Maker's mark is curved and is not readable. I can make out bits and parts, but nothing that is complete. I can't even see a complete year.

Your input welcomed

[k98]

Maybe?

Nice mint matching bayonet!
Please check if the scarbard wears 44asw instead of 43asw?
Frog could be early

[Spencer PK]

Nice mint matching bayonet!
Please check if the scarbard wears 44asw instead of 43asw?
Frog could be early

Wow!

I didn't check this, but is IS "44 ASW"!

They must have made the blade on December 31st and the scabbard on New Years Day. Not really, I'm sure, but close to the turnover. I've seen another one with this same kind of mismatch but it was a "U" block piece, SN 9476u, same grips. Amazing, how did you know this one might be the same?

Yes, the frog seems to show a lot more wear than the bayonet & scabbard. The leather is worn but in great condition, someone took care of it, but you can see the wear and stretching where it was on a belt for a very long time.

[AndyB]

43/44 asw are well known bayonets, but there are in special series, so certainly we should see the letter under SN, anyway it looks like a untouched piece with a prewar early produced frog,unit marked for 1.Kompanie.

[Spencer PK]

43/44 asw are well known bayonets, but there are in special series, so certainly we should see the letter under SN, anyway it looks like a untouched piece with a prewar early produced frog,unit marked for 1.Kompanie.

Interesting. Is this 43/44 mismatch one of those things that looks unusual and rare but is actually pretty common? The bayonet is an "s" block piece. Is there any documentation about these bayonets, any research that you can point me to? I found some stuff online, including one post that had this quote:

Interesting that these are seen in only the Q thru V serial blocks. Thought to be 1943 reject bayonets that were later mated with 1944 scabbards and then numbered to match. Here's one in the "u" block. Not sure why, but most of these that I've seen show little use and are in pretty good condition...

Another quote about them:

most double dates are seen at the transition from one year to another I've thought of these (more or less) mid year 1944 Hörsters as being in a somewhat unique category by themselves. Seen in the "t,", "u", and "v" blocks (with perhaps some stragglers at the ends). And the occasional 'can' marked welded scabbards. Best Regards, Fred

Here's a shot of the letter block under the serial on the blade, and a picture of the rough welding on the scabbard. I did see a very faint "C" on the scabbard under the serial / letter stamping, mostly ground away, so there's that.

[Spencer PK]

Apologies if I am going over things that everyone here knows already. It's a first for me, so I'm interested.

On the k98.fr site I found an all-matching all-43 example from the "r" block, sn 4867r. Interesting that in all other respects it's the same as all the 43/44 ones I've seen listed. Same grips, finish etc. What are there theories about how this mismatch came along? I see mentions of this mismatch in the blocks Q R S T U V. Did E.u.F Horster use the red grips for a long run that went over two years?

http://k98.free.fr/43asw-4867r.html

[Frogprince]

When discussed years ago there were a lot of theories that for the most part fell by the wayside like rejects etc. when examined more closely. So it’s not really a mismatch (IMO), instead being the reuse of an unmodified 1943 maker stamp by Hörster. Presumably because for a brief interval a 1944 replacement stamp was not immediately available for some reason that was later corrected. With AndyB being the one who has the most current data, and “s” in 1944 as I recall one of the stragglers at the ends. Also having seen some much scarcer date overstamps at the transitions from one year to the next which is not the same thing as this much larger block of double dates. I should also probably mention that in 1944 “ddl” (J. Corts) also reused a partially ground off date maker stamp leaving the “4” just like some of the “4” only dates seen with some late rifles. As for the red Bakelite grips, Hörster on its Wehrmacht contracts went to them near the end of 1943 reaching the “zz” block. With in 1943 the “aa” to at least the “kk” from Hörster still using wood. Best Regards, Fred

[AndyB]

Fred has already explained, we believe the 44asw was for short period damaged so it was used the old 43 asw stamp, the production is typical for part of 1944 , You will never found a 44/44asw in ranges p-v.Only 43/44asw configuration, its happened in middle of year 1944 so no way a year switch in this case. The piece is ok. b.r.Andy