I remember when I first starting collecting and buying - in 2007 and 2008 and Brian maederer on his site used to have nice SA daggers for $600 and I bought 2, he had plenty more at that price and then around 2008 - overnight he marked them up to like $900-1000 and I see Wittman has all these avg plain daggers selling for $1200-1500 and I think they are worth maybe $700, and if u buy from wittman at $1200 for an avg SA and then need to sell via eStand it will be a hard slog to get $600 or so, in the end wittman is a business man but I have heard him say how well he has done out of the hobby and I see him creaming profits and holding up prices on what is avg stuff - how good for the hobby is that?
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Wittmann or any other dealer can say something is an investment - Just like Alice in Wonderland - they want to make a word mean whatever they want it to mean. Stocks or bonds could be investments. Gold or silver bullion coins could be investments because they are instantly tradeable. Militaria is not so it does not fit the definition of investment. It might be a speculation, a gamble, a hobby. Dealers might be the most noble creatures since Mother Theresa. But militaria is still technically not an investment. Not all dealers go as far as Wittmann does. He says that a collector should put his retirement funds into high end TR daggers and put them in a safe deposit box. If a collector does this and loses money the seller might be putting himself in the position of having given bad investment advice. Just ask around demand for TR is not strong here in the US. Even Johnson issues a disclaimer - there is no guarantee and you should hold militaria for 5 or 10 years just for a possible increase. Any investment advisor not in the militaria business would think you were joking if you suggested militaria as an investment.Originally posted by kersten View PostComment
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There are more important things for the average person to buy right now than daggers...this is a good time to buy...YES if you are witman and you'll sell to him for half of retail to recoup some necessary cash while he pleads he has too many now unless they are cheap. Dealers with cash flow have the lions share...but the markets mushy right now...no jobs for many....political strife , insurance issues due to newly railroaded healthcare ...college fees 14,000 a semester.....some insurance policies prices up in some areas 85% over last year.....war looming in the middle east....and isis or isil, already infiltrated into the usa via mexico.....not to mention the financial strangle hold by new laws that keep small business owners from being able to make it due to insurance mandates,....60%tax on businesses..while food stamps cut to give to illegals who should have been deported...gangs out of control...and the irs used as a weapon then there's much more not mentioned....I say let em keep their daggers and be buried with them . It's time to go back to hunt the old way as when I started...first hand, and with no price guides...just an agreement and cash changing hands. Time for forgetting the big names when buying....and then it will be fun again and even newbys will prosper. Like the housing bubble...these prices are over inflated falsely like stocks and futures on the s and p , IMO by as much as 50% ... as were houses in 2005 or 6....and cannot continue at this rate....only the rarest items will bring the big bucks....and so use sites like toms to differentiate which daggers are more desirable, and buy elsewhere.....same with all other dagger sellers....if things go as I think they will...even forums will start withering and dying except for the retirees who no longer have to work and can vultch with the forums help as a medium to buy for only the cream of the crop purchases, and I think as dillon said :The times they are a changing.
Last edited by juoneen; 08-08-2014, 10:26 PM.Comment
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I agree Juoneen that times are changing - for any new collectors joining the hobby I recommend eStand and avoid the big name dealers - I think they set prices too high and make money selling the same stuff over and over - bog standard SA daggers - in my opinion - are worth $500, not $1100. I am not a prepper but it's pretty obvious some bad financial times are coming with the US still spending $1.5 trillion more every year than it earns - that's not sustainable - let alone all the other financially unsustainable things gong onComment
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I have really never thought about my collecting as an investment. It has been a life long passion of mine, I remember as a kid going to th fleamarkets with my parents and buying anything I could afford. I never had more than 20 dollar and that would have been a very rare to have that much. But I found some pretty good buys. I guess you could look at that as an investment that could possibly pay off big time, but I have no intension of ever selling my stuff because like I said I have real passion for it, I think that is the way to look at it no matter what you collect weather its militaria or beanie babies.
KeithComment
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Passion is the right word for an true collector and nevertheless time goes and the value usually is better, or may be the cost price,but where is the Investment on a very good holiday for two weeks ?The Money is gone totaly
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Any collector knows the first rule of collecting is COLLECT WHAT YOU LIKE! The enjoyment I get from my gravity knife collection has no price tag. Examining them and wondering about their history/where they've been/owner's fate is fascinating to me. Collectors who buy whatever item (not just militaria) with an eye ONLY on turning a profit down the road usually end up on the short end. True collecting includes at least a small degree of passion for the item being collected. Just my 2 pfennigs.Comment
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Collecting should be fun and you should buy what you like and enjoy it. What is actually required is patience and there are guys that just buy items in substandard conditions or swing too hard on the numbers. When you buy what you like you also run risks as you need to stay on top of fakes and if your switch hitting its all the more harder. I have pieces I will never get out of with out getting clobbered because I like them and had to have them, no regrets there but you don't want to do that across the board and its best to use a ratio of 10-20% on those items. You should ask yourself what will happen if you go to sell it or have to sell it, what you will probably get. Collectors can be fickle and interests change so the time will come where a piece is sold.Comment
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As an aside, dealers that utilize sales descriptions that talk about investment potential are really not far off the mark in reality. How they are applying that may have to do with the fact that they are investors in some way and the same principles apply to the stock market or any other investment model. The two main factors for working in the stock market are Discipline and patience, passion is not an asset when investing in any particular model and is best saved for the bedroom or an elevator, or wherever.
If you apply those principles to both the Stock Market and to collectibles you essentially have the same model, Passion should be removed. If your in the markets or stock markets you are not guaranteed anything and you are speculating there just as much you are in hall full of collectibles. The difference is having your eggs in different baskets and risk profile. Whether your a conservative investor or an aggressive investor your running risk whether you have a 401, mutual fund, individual stocks or options. Its all in how you manage your collection or your investments and the FDIC does not guarantee either. You need to be just as smart in the hall as you are in your investments in order to alleviate or even hedge downside risk. Its really the same thing.Comment
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That Witty has so many daggers for sale shows you that they are not really rare; the only people recommending TR for investment are sellers or people who are loaded with the stuff. You can find good buys, but not by buying at retail and holding them. The downside is that someone with more money than sense might actually take his retirement funds and buy high end daggers and put them away. 20 years from now the big name dealers won't be around to come up with excuses.Originally posted by kersten View PostComment
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I don't think Tom Wittman buys daggers because he feels they are crashing in value. He puts his money where his mouth is. I don't shop at stores with only a few items. I like having a choice, and that is what you get when seeing his tables and his website. He is smart enough to have done very well and many collectors, including myself, have bought from him and had their daggers appreciate quite nicely. However, there have been held for years, if not decades. I don't see the opportunity to pay retail and hope for a profit or break even without the benefit of time.
There is another consideration. Since most collectors now demand that no deal is ever closed, it is safer to buy from a reputable dealer who will guarantee his merchandise. Some collectors may not be able to offer refunds or exchange if an item is returned after a reasonable inspection.
With so many hating this hobby and those who deal, it is a wonder why they continue to punish themselves. Perhaps we should have a Collector Masochist Forum for some to revel in their suffering and anguish over collecting.
At least there are some of us who still find great joy in our hobby.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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Once again you're so negative! ITs like you hate everything! Somewhat like Bob just said! You complain about Himmler daggers being overpriced, then don't buy any! You complain about Witty's practices, then don't buy from him! And as stated, there is nothing illegal, from a securities regulation standpoint, that Wittmann or any dealer I'm aware of does.Originally posted by BrianK View Post
Rare is all relative and a salesman is a salesman. Your comments make me think you are jealous of those who can buy rare or whatever. And i'm sure your reply will be-I wouldn't pay what they want anyway or something similar...Last edited by The Red Baron; 08-09-2014, 05:05 PM.Comment
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This thread risks becoming a circular argument, my points are:
1. I am sure there is ongoing market / price manipulation by dealers and the himmler ss daggers are a good example of this
2. I think we collectors pay a very heavy price to our beloved dealers - I know - I won't name them but I know some dealers who are not greedy and are in the hobby to make a living and not to get rich via cleverly working it
3. When Wittman openly goads collectors into pulling money out of an IRA to buy a mega high priced dagger - to nicely line his bulging pockets when we are near a huge financial meltdown - and even if the Fed can keep the show running for 5 more years - dropping $12k on a rare SS dagger now - when will that buyer ever see that money again, or be able to even get $7k back, it's like collectors who paid $14k for ss rings off Gottlieb - they lost big dollars
I think dealers should not openly suggest collectors move money out of IRA accounts to buy their highly priced items - I think that's morally wrong and Wittman has made so much money out of collectors I think he should curtail his greedComment
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