Has anyone looked at just how many daggers Wittman has in stock? He has so many daggers and swords it's crazy. Maybe this is a good thing but in many of his ads he openly talks about investment potential - but has the market for blades topped out years ago? Will a nice standard nickel ss degen go for not more than $10k? It seems so, I had a good look thru his inventory and he has like 10 to 15 daggers per category for sale - wtf is going to buy all his avg daggers where he asks for top price, not to mention his 3.5% credit card policy where he demands that u help pay for his past cc fraud issues...
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His stock is large yes, but like you said the real "investment" pieces are not available for pubic sale. The top end SS daggers and even SA are not on sites. And if you notice nearly all of his daggers are consigned, the stock number has a C at the end, meaning he doesn''t have to shell out any money to list them on his site, and the people selling expect to get a premium due to his name. He's a businessman, selling daggers to him is like selling equities to an investor; you could argue certain securities like REITs are not "investments" just like one can make the argument for daggers.Originally posted by kersten View Post -
No way are daggers investments - they are very easy to buy but if you try to sell they will sit forever on consignment. The only possible exception to this rule are SS daggers - which collectors are nutty for - no matter how common they are. If TR dealers were subject to the same rules as securities dealers in touting investments, they would be closed down by the govt.Comment
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Hallo,Originally posted by kersten View Post
that's a good time to buy stuff.Otherwise i look in his stock for ss-daggers and the most of them are with little damaged parts and in my eyes so overpriced!
Undoubted near mint daggers and swords,i speak for ss-blades,are quick sold!
And yes,ss-blades are a very,very,very,........ good Investment !When i recall at the old days,may be the late 1990 years a very good m33 ss-dagger cost in EURO 1250 EURO and now the triple!Comment
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You are always very negative regarding the value of these pieces-do you collect daggers? Do you only buy from collectors and vets? Just curious more than anything. And as for working in securities regulation, there is little that any dealer does that violates statue or common law.Originally posted by BrianK View PostComment
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Well said Baron, I for one am in total agreement with you.Comment
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All you need to know about daggers as an investment is to just look at the German Auctions like Thies and HH. In the past couple of years check out the prices!!
Right now, try to find a nice conditioned HJ Leader, EM RLB, SS M36, any NPEA with markings. You will soon see where the investment potential is and what is hot.
In daggers its condition, condition, condition; just like in real estate its location, location, location.
As far as inventory is concerned, SAs, Army, 2nd Luft and HJ knives in common condition have always been plentiful on anyone's list. I currently have 22 Army Daggers in stock and its no different now as any other time.Comment
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I buy and sell a lot of stuff - 99% of dealers will not buy outright and require you to put it on consignment. My point is nothing can qualify as an investment that is so hard to sell. If the FTC ever got involved (not that it is necessarily within their jurisdiction) with the way some dealers sell TR militaria as an investment, there would be big trouble. It doesn't fit any rational legal definition of an investment. Also IMO SS daggers are just the current fad of high rollers with OCD.Originally posted by The Red Baron View PostComment
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Can't really rely on Thies for realized prices as he tends to hammer down on unsold lots and you really do not know if it sold or not. HH is spotty on their realized numbers and tends to range. On top of that the European market differs than the US market in performance.Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post
Other than that it is condition driven but the economics are weighing more on the US market more so than the European markets which is why you have the price disparity in sales. It's also apparent that many European buyers prefer to buy in their own back yard and will pay more than they would have to in the US to do it. Could be several reasons for this. But the big dealers are not buying heavy inventory and sellers unload their dogs first and that shows in the market. Guys are buried from the great investments from 10 years ago and can't get out and dealers are not buying. So you have product coming in on consignment at a heavier percentile. It will take years to straighten itself out if your lucky, but top shelf pieces will sell, so there are still investment grade pieces but one has to recognize or at least be able to handicap the market and be nimble to find and acquire those particular pieces.Comment
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I disagree I believe SS is and will always be in demand as long as their is a demand. and dealing in this area of law I can tell you no dealers break securities laws by advertising their daggers as an investment. Its merely an opinion and not legally actionable.Originally posted by BrianK View PostComment
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There is a secondary consideration as well. The cultural difference between the US buyers and the European buyers or further referenced as the consumer.
The American consumer lives on credit and will many times be leveraged with debt in the form of a mortgage, multiple car payments, kids, credit cards etc. when you get economic uncertainty these people are not only vulnerable and tend to lock down, and they could be unemployed at a moments notice. This serves to freeze up the market as discretionary spending is in many cases halted and some start to sell at a loss, or seek to recover their investment. Not easy to do in many cases.
The European consumer buys what he can afford and is not leveraged or straddled with credit. This means if they cannot afford it they don't buy it. This allows them more freedom to move whether they be German or Polish and that is the way they are. Their economy at least in Germany is stronger and they have a currency advantage.
The biggest mistake and the most notable with some dealers but not all is a tendency to run valuations based on European prices realized and apply them to the U.S market by running currency conversions. This rarely applies as it's two separate markets. So technically a dagger that sells for 700.00 Euro does not mean a 925.00 dagger in the U.S. It will most often mean a 700.00 U.S dollar dagger. Rarely can you actually apply that conversion as there are more than a few market factors to consider.
I see topics on British dealers having crazy prices, it's true in some cases if you convert the numbers, but their selling to Brits and Euro's. So the ask should be looked at as home currency where 700 pounds is 700 U.S. The amazing thing is the hagglers in the US market tend to be the Euros and the Brits, who want to bargain while coming in with currency advantages of 38-68%. It really never fails.
As far as regulations? There are none, it's a sale description and either an opinion or sales style and a dealer can say whatever he likes.Last edited by J. Wraith; 08-08-2014, 05:36 PM.Comment
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As a reformed dagger collector I figured I would throw my two cents in. I too remember the days of SS ors daggers for $1000. Supply and demand dictates price. I do believe they are a good "investment" just like gold, property etc. It all comes down to what you want to put your money into. I have purchased from Mr Whittman in the past when I collected and have had no issues with my purchases. If you were in my store and looking at Canadian badges I have tons of certain ones. That does not mean that they are not in demand or dont have any value, I just like to buy in quantity. Truck loads of stuff dont scare me I just have to figure out were to put it into the store somehow. I am sure any rational dealer is doing the exact same thing. It all comes down to price when buying. Perhaps his stuff is on consignment, perhaps not. That is his business. And just because you dont see yourself buying it does not mean that somebody in the middle of nowhere is not. You probably wont ever know the guy who is buying from him.
In reference to dollar figures, it has been going on for many years that what you pay in Canadian funds you will pay the same figure in US funds and the same figure in British pounds and in Euros. That wont change. Do I still buy from overseas? Yes. Will you???????????????? Probably also. It all comes down to having to have it in your hands.
Enjoy the hobby and avoid the idiots.
Good luck
DaveComment
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Some comments and insights here - I think it's clear that the good stuff, the rare and top end items continue to climb in value - if I can find them - but the dross, a g items just sit - any new collector coming in - if they load up with avg starter daggers from wittman at his prices, they r in for a nasty hit when they try to upgradeComment
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Hi kersten
It is not just Whitman who has these prices. Most of the dealers are asking the same prices more or less. It all comes down to how badly you want it.
$300 sa daggers are long gone unless they are dogs and then they are impossible to sell. Just my two cents
DaveComment
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