Amazing german dress bayonet.

[jwh44]

Hello

This dress bayonet came with a Weimar era portepee. Do you think this bayonet is from Weimar era or WWI ?

Regards
Alain

[jwh44]

More photos...

[SCHUPO]

Alain,

I have one of these that is almost identical, except my scabbard is slightly different. My scabbard has a removable mouthpiece that does not have a lip all the way around it like yours and that on the standard KS98 scabbard. My wide mouthpiece is held in place by a small central screw on the obverse but it is not made with a lip on one edge like the Imperial S84/98 scabbard. He does not clearly show the scabbards on these unfortunately. These scabbards are not for the KS98 as the blade is too wide. My nickeled unmarked bayonet is the same as yours.

Bruce Karem shows several of these in his book, "The German S84/98 Bayonet Volume 1: 1908-1933". He believes them to be Imperial and that is partly due to some manufactured with a blade with a central fuller clearly made by Walther & Co. (Move-Werke) which have Imperial grip cyphers. The hilts are the same with some having the finger guard and some not. He believes them to be "rare" because of the limited numbers made or found. He calls them "Imperial Era Commercial or Private Purchase S84/98" on page 64.

George

[Billy G]

Alain,

Great looking knot!

[Sleepwalker]

Yes, IMO, like SCHUPO has writen, this seems to a german Extra-Seitengewehr out of the time 1915-1918 of the makers Walther & Co. or Move-Werke .

But not even a dress bayonet. A lot of officers, NCO´s or senior NCO´s bought such kind of Extra-Seitengewehr. The specifications of this modes allowed a real use in batle... not only unusable dress decorations like in the III Reich period.
In a order of 1915 stand, that the officers etc. can use own bayonets or service bayonets... but both had to be used with the rifles of the men.

The knot is out of the weimar era.... but the bayonet can be used longer then 1918.

Regards

[jwh44]

Thanks George ,Billy and sleepwalker.

I have the book from B. Karem and I had a look at the bayonets he shows.
My scabbard is like those for KS98. A central screw holds the mouthpiece with 2 inside springs. The blade fits perfectly the scabbard. Do you think it might be a variation or this scabbard is not for this bayonet ?
Regards
Alain

[Ron Weinand]

I have owned a couple of these over the years and thought them to be WWI reworks from the 1920s. Quality is far nicer than WWI era and really compares to the type of blue found on the PSS reworked police bayonets. JMO.

[Frogprince]

Absent some additional information, I'm inclined to go along with Ron on this one. The bluing looks like it might be a "hot dip" type of bluing. The use of nickel plating when black became de rigueur for late manufacture Imperial items. The use of a flashguard. The choice of grip material when many of the known Imperial examples with grip emblems were black and checkered. In any event it's a nice example of a scarce bayonet. Fred

[jwh44]

Thanks to all for your comments.
Some new pics.
Regards
Alain

[SCHUPO]

Alain,

Look closely at the mouthpiece and see if it has been altered. The S84/98 style blade on this bayonet is a bit wider than the usual KS98 blade. I don't think it would easily fit into a standard KS98 scabbard so your scabbard may be of the period or a replacement. These bayonets certainly could have been made and worn into the time period of the Weimar Republic as they are Extra-Seitengewehre.

Yours is a perfectly legitimate and a scarce, or rare (I hate that word), variation. Congratulations!

[jwh44]

Hi George

Here is a photo of the mouthpiece.
Regards
Alain

[SCHUPO]

It looks pretty neatly elongated to fit the wider blade. If there is rust and blacking on the ends I would think it is probably original. At least that is what I think I see in the photo. You have it in hand to check that it has not recently been altered.

[jwh44]

Hi George

There is black paint on the ends.
Regards
Alain