What NOT to do when buying daggers at a show

[kiwitedferny]

Morning Gentlemen,

I have a few thoughts on my experience of attending a large show (the SOS) for the first time that I thought I'd share.

I lobbed into Louisville to achieve 2 objectives: 1. To pick up and return safe hand to NZ a handful,of daggers pre purchased from Bill Shae. 2. Meet some of the big names in the dealer field, and eyeball a couple of very rare and expensive high end blades being offered for sale.

What did I learn?

Well, the first lesson is don't show people what you've purchased.

Being a New Zealander, and therefore naturally gregarious, when I met people and we swapped info about what we had respectively purchased, and was asked to show my 'beauties', I was happy to do so. I enjoy the social side of this collecting 'disease' a d like to see what other guys have purchased, hear about the piece, and hopefully learn a thing or two about 'stuff'. Alas, this seems not to be a good idea...

In a number of cases, people cast their eye over the inscribed blades and airily declared them to be either fake, or misrepresented in some way. A Russian 'expert' in inscriptions poured over one blade and declared that the inscription was inconsistent with the runner markings. And on this basis - it was bogus. He didn't know, and I didn't enlighten him, that the blade had started life as a Full Rohm, subsequently ground, with a Furth School inscription added post grinding - so the original runner marks WOULD be 'beneath' the inscription. None the less, as soon as he had made his judgement call - that became 'gospel' with his Russian comrades. The Rooskies love nothing more than sticking it to Yank dealers.....

Another quite drunk American, having confessed no expertise in the dagger field called 'BS' on my Himmler Inscription on the basis of a slight asymmetrical shrinkage of the grip. During the course of my and a friendly Australian (our natural best friends AND mortal enemies) rebuttal of his argument learned that this bloke didn't know what ebony was....a wood. He then went on to slander EVERY dealers name that I put to him as 'good' dealers. Apparently, every top dealer is a crook in this blokes universe.

We also pointed out to him that all these blades are depicted in the 'bibles' - either Wittman or Johnson's reference works. This made no impression on him, as apparently the books are mostly wrong...

Long story short - when I suggested that he A. Stand in front of Bill and Jason B and call BS on their products to their faces, or B. get busy and re write the reference works so that the rest of us ignoramuses could profit from his stupendous expertise - he didn't want a bar of it, but did enjoy regaling others in the vicinity with his story of 'how he had educated the dumb Kiwi about the perils of the collecting game'....

The issue I have, post this unpleasant experience is this - having shown the blades, there will now be a 'Chinese whisper' chain casting aspersions over their authenticity. I'm sure that 5 years from now, if I mention or sell these blades, that there will be some guy saying "yeah, I remember that Kiwi 'whale' brought some blades - heard they were no good - such and such called BS over some issue" etc etc.....

Who needs that?

So, in future, I think I will follow the long standing collectors mantra of discretion - keep the 'mystique' of the high end pieces by NOT cheerfully showing them to dick heads.

I have to say that this experience put a slight 'crimp' in what was otherwise an enjoyable experience.

However, in summary, I am happy with the blades I purchased. Bill Shae is a 'good' dealer. Jason B is recognized expert and the overwhelming body of opinion from other 'names' that I met at the show give him the thumbs up.
The blades are photo referenced in the 'bibles' and have had a great many eyes cast over them during their lifespan in the market. If they were dodgy, we'd know by now - and not because some drunk minor dealer trying to show off in front of 2 guys from Down Under says so...

Hope that's been helpful to any newbies thinking about attending one of the big shows. By all means ask for opinions - just be selective about whose opinion you canvas. There are a lot of small potatoe 'experts' out there trying to man-up, as well as the professionally jealous dealers who want to 'stick it' to the big boys.

That is all...as you were..

Cheers
Ted

P.S congratulation to the Aussie for starting drinking with me at 11.oo pm and still being there drinking with me at 6.00 am the following morning. I to.d you the Yanks can't drink....

[nickn]

i agree with what you say lots of knockers in this hobby
i do have one question
if a rohm was issued in 33/34 then went back to the factory in 34/35 to have the rohm inscription removed why would there be deep runner marks to start with? and any runner marks would have been removed when the rohm dedication was removed so how could there be runner marks under the furth inscription??

[kiwitedferny]

i agree with what you say lots of knockers in this hobby
i do have one question
if a rohm was issued in 33/34 then went back to the factory in 34/35 to have the rohm inscription removed why would there be deep runner marks to start with? and any runner marks would have been removed when the rohm dedication was removed so how could there be runner marks under the furth inscription??

It was explained to me.....I may have got the 'beneath' 'over' things mixed up.....ask Bill! LOL.

[patrice]

Hello mate,

I know exactly what you mean and what you've been through at the show.
There are many so-called experts and many of them don't even own a dagger. One of the main reason why people act that way is merely because they are plain jealous and stupid, simple as that.

There are even experts that will tell you that your stuff is questionable and also for the same selfish reasons, to make you feel bad 'cause they are jealous. It happened to me at the last Max show about an SS dagger that I had bought. The expert wanted to have that dagger in the first place but let's just say that I pulled the trigger faster and got it. What happened next what just pathetic but I don't want to go into this.

Never show your stuff to idiots, buy directly from reliable sources and keep it for yourself.

Good collecting !

[ErichS]

The same thing also happens on forums to collectors who want to share pieces from their collections and are met with " it's a fake" by those uneducated on what they're commenting on. It's a shame that this happens and will keep many collectors from showing their often rare pices.

[tanker]

I agree what you are saying and hope you don't let it alter your collecting. There will always be the know it alls that sit behind the computer and talk trash but can't even put forth real evidence. It has happens to all of us who have been coolecting awhile. Sometimes it is very frustrating when a good honest piece is shown and some know it all quickly declares it not original, be it cloth or daggers, and then everybody follows lock step in with the same type of posting. I have seen and have had this happens.
Bottom line, be proud of your collection. Ron

[Serge M.]

KiwiTed,

I don't want to sound crass but that was a good education for you. Your story is a common one- unfortunately.

The 'experts' are out there thicker then fleas on a dogs back. the rarer and more expensive the dagger is the MORE criticism it will get from X-spurts who never even owned a example.

Just wait when you get your Feldherrnhalle dagger. The X-spurts will come out jumping with all four feet. Most have never owned or hand examined such a rarity. They don't know 'jack' about it. Jason B., Witty, a few of the real experienced guys who have had one or more of these rarities will know and will share info but not here in the open.

Some X-spurts just like popping your balloon, it's cheap and 'it's fun'. They don't have the money and as Patrice says are just jealous. Some just want to make a name for themselves, or get back in the hobby by showing that they 'catched what eveyone else missed'. Thrashing a originial rarity by casting doubts of it on the internet is a true but sad affair that many here have experienced, myself included.

From what I seen you have a great start with some great daggers that in my view are 100% correct. Don't let The Losers of the hobby dull the glitter of enthusiasm for this great hobby - there are some real good people in it also.

Best of the Quest,
-wagner-

[fredswiss]

Right on ErichS. I agree with you 100%.

[adren]

Well there is also human nature at play.

If you show a guy 5 daggers worth 5 years of salary to him, he might get a bit jealous sometimes and say all kinds of things.

I am sure you will live through this and the daggers will still be worth something in the future.

Best Regards,

Adren

[dave peifer]

kiwited..........i read your post and thought i would comment,you are right as far as showing things to most people,i have said this before and might as well say it again..........you can go to any show and show 5 people a piece and almost always get 3 or more different opinions.buy from the well known and reputable dealers,do your own research and be satisfied with your own opinions,in the end you are the one who must be comfortable with your collection.bill s and jason b are, in my opinion stand up dealers along with others.there are also many on the other side of the fence.erichs is spot on,this is why i choose not to post from my collection,all it takes is one uneducated comment to ruin a show.........as they say.............dave

[kiwitedferny]

The same thing also happens on forums to collectors who want to share pieces from their collections and are met with " it's a fake" by those uneducated on what they're commenting on. It's a shame that this happens and will keep many collectors from showing their often rare pices.

Yes. It's a bit sad. Still, as everyone is saying - do your homework; stick to the good dealers; back yourself and enjoy it! Life is short....
I'll still show my 'stuff', but I'll just ignore the nay Sayers from now on.

[kiwitedferny]

KiwiTed,

I don't want to sound crass but that was a good education for you. Your story is a common one- unfortunately.

The 'experts' are out there thicker then fleas on a dogs back. the rarer and more expensive the dagger is the MORE criticism it will get from X-spurts who never even owned a example.

Just wait when you get your Feldherrnhalle dagger. The X-spurts will come out jumping with all four feet. Most have never owned or hand examined such a rarity. They don't know 'jack' about it. Jason B., Witty, a few of the real experienced guys who have had one or more of these rarities will know and will share info but not here in the open.

Some X-spurts just like popping your balloon, it's cheap and 'it's fun'. They don't have the money and as Patrice says are just jealous. Some just want to make a name for themselves, or get back in the hobby by showing that they 'catched what eveyone else missed'. Thrashing a originial rarity by casting doubts of it on the internet is a true but sad affair that many here have experienced, myself included.

From what I seen you have a great start with some great daggers that in my view are 100% correct. Don't let The Losers of the hobby dull the glitter of enthusiasm for this great hobby - there are some real good people in it also.

Best of the Quest,
-wagner-

Cheers Mate! Will do. And I'll still hit the shows from time to time. I did meet some great folks along the way.

[kiwitedferny]

kiwited..........i read your post and thought i would comment,you are right as far as showing things to most people,i have said this before and might as well say it again..........you can go to any show and show 5 people a piece and almost always get 3 or more different opinions.buy from the well known and reputable dealers,do your own research and be satisfied with your own opinions,in the end you are the one who must be comfortable with your collection.bill s and jason b are, in my opinion stand up dealers along with others.there are also many on the other side of the fence.erichs is spot on,this is why i choose not to post from my collection,all it takes is one uneducated comment to ruin a show.........as they say.............dave

Thanks Dave. I got a feel for some of the other dealers, good and.....dubious. I'll stick to the handful of guys who have been in the game a long time.

[kiwitedferny]

Hello mate,

I know exactly what you mean and what you've been through at the show.
There are many so-called experts and many of them don't even own a dagger. One of the main reason why people act that way is merely because they are plain jealous and stupid, simple as that.

There are even experts that will tell you that your stuff is questionable and also for the same selfish reasons, to make you feel bad 'cause they are jealous. It happened to me at the last Max show about an SS dagger that I had bought. The expert wanted to have that dagger in the first place but let's just say that I pulled the trigger faster and got it. What happened next what just pathetic but I don't want to go into this.

Never show your stuff to idiots, buy directly from reliable sources and keep it for yourself.

Good collecting !

Good advise....I'm learning slowly the other 'discrete' collectors who are happy to 'share the joy' without exposing themselves to the gallery. It'd be a shame if we all ended up in our bunkers, caressing our prizes in isolation. We should be sharing the experience.

[DR DOLCH]

If you do not want other peoples opinions on daggers,do not ask for them.