Herder SA Dagger with Crooked Grip Eagle for Opinions...

[dzyner]

Hi all.

I recently purchased this SA dagger, and when I received it something caught my eye almost immediately... the grip eagle is crooked and off center by a decent margin when compared to standard placement on other example SA daggers. See the first photos below where I applied a vertical and horizontal line to show the degree of error. Has anyone come across a similar issue, where the eagle placement (or something similar) made it through quality control?

Also, I'd like to get thoughts on the grip colored maker's mark (deep redish-brown) and what's left of the same color applied to the motto. I'm leaning toward post-war applied coloring (which isn't hard to do), but curious if there are other examples out there where the coloring applied to the etched areas of the blade were done to match the grip color.







Thanks!
Dzyner

[DR DOLCH]

Not unusual for a RZM period dagger.But not often seen on an early piece like yours,I'm sure it could happen now and then.I don't know what to think about the reddish paint.

[R.R.]

Hi Dzyner,

The only think I'm sure about your dagger is the lower crossguard is inverted, SA gruppe marking is in the wrong forward position. I no idea about the red colour, from this picture looks like a red oxidation, but it is inconsistent with the blade condition. I had see another with this red colour some times ago in this forum but I no idea what is it. I don't like so much grip/lower crossguard fitting too, may be due the crossguard invertion. Yes, eagle position is very strange, but seems to me it's only a periode done mistake.

Regards,

Ricardo

[Br. James]

Ricardo's and Dr. Dolch's comments are spot on, IMO. The lower crossguard is certainly reversed, which means that this piece has been taken apart at least once during its post-war lifetime, and that opens it up for all sorts of other skepticism...again, IMO. Your own comment regarding this piece passing inspection bearing the mis-aligned grip eagle is also tell-tale. If you could return this piece to the person you purchased it from, I think you would feel much more at ease than if you do now...I certainly would!

Br. James

[Rheingold]

dzyner,
no problem with the eagle. I own a C&R Linder and the eagle is also a bit crooked & off center.

[dzyner]

Hi guys.

Thanks for the feedback. I really have no problem at all with the fact the eagle is crooked. I think it just illustrates that despite how detail oriented and strict the TR was about these things, there were still mistakes, such as this one, that made it into circulation. I like that it's not perfect. I'm sure I'm in the minority, and most would return it to the seller as Br. James recommended (which is good advice, and ordinarily I would), but I think I'll hold onto this one.

[Ed Sunday]

Absolutely nothing inferior on this piece. Hang on to it.

[cogwheel]

Over the years I have seen this phenomenon on political daggers on a regular basis. These daggers were basically handmade - and no one is perfect.

[Br. James]

As I said in my first note, my main concern is that this piece has been taken apart and reassembled...by someone who was apparently careless and unknowledgable enough to replace the lower crossguard backwards, and this should be quite concerning to any other collector or possible buyer. While the various parts which comprise this piece appear to be original and of the proper period, the suspicion generated by the lower crossguard being mounted the wrong way 'round easily leads to possibilities of why anyone took the trouble to dis-assemble this piece in the first place -- assuming that all was in order to begin with -- and what correcting this error might lead to. I have never encouraged anyone to take any edged weapon apart for any reason, for the damage this could easily lead to could ruin the piece forever. But that's just my opinion...

Br. James

[cogwheel]

Personally I am not in favor of routinely disassembling and reassembling a dagger. However it frequently happens that the buyer wants to know about maker marks inside the cross guards or markings on the tang, etc. before buying a dagger. With political daggers it is extremely importand that they are re-assembled in the same manner as they were before. Reversed crossguards can have a large impact on the general fit up of the hilt to the blade, the lower cross guard to the throat, the handle to the cross guard, etc. From what I have seen these frivolous disassemly/reassembly cycles have become rather routine these days.

[Ed Sunday]

Personally I am not in favor of routinely disassembling and reassembling a dagger. However it frequently happens that the buyer wants to know about maker marks inside the cross guards or markings on the tang, etc. before buying a dagger. With political daggers it is extremely importand that they are re-assembled in the same manner as they were before. Reversed crossguards can have a large impact on the general fit up of the hilt to the blade, the lower cross guard to the throat, the handle to the cross guard, etc. From what I have seen these frivolous disassemly/reassembly cycles have become rather routine these days.

I agree, can't be said any better !