Newbie in VA requests help identify my WaffenSS dagger

[777]

John, I'm sorry, but you're totally wrong about Roman numerals, districts etc. Accidental web information doesn't apply to what we have here. The early SS daggers do have Roman numerals: I,II, and III, and these stand for something else than "districts", they stand for 3 distribution centers based in Munich, Berlin and Dresden. And most important of it all: these numerals look totally, totally different than what you have on your dagger

[w4uvv]

You are correct

John, I'm sorry, but you're totally wrong about Roman numerals, districts etc. Accidental web information doesn't apply to what we have here. The early SS daggers do have Roman numerals: I,II, and III, and these stand for something else than "districts", they stand for 3 distribution centers based in Munich, Berlin and Dresden. And most important of it all: these numerals look totally, totally different than what you have on your dagger

I agree and apologize for the erroneous post. I know now the internet reference source on which I based my post was 100% incorrect. Much later browsing the internet I located another source stating exactly what you posted. In browsing occasionally I noticed contradictions posted which were more opinions than facts regarding some other SS dagger attributes. Unfortunately incorrect posts are also on the internet forever. Tnx.

John

[Frogprince]

I agree and apologize for the erroneous post. I know now the internet reference source on which I based my post was 100% incorrect. Much later browsing the internet I located another source stating exactly what you posted. In browsing occasionally I noticed contradictions posted which were more opinions than facts regarding some other SS dagger attributes. Unfortunately incorrect posts are also on the internet forever. Tnx.

John

John, If the link you posted was taken directly from the manual (which I believe it is) I don't think that it is in error when taken in context of what the writers at the time thought was correct based on their wartime studies. But rather an error of interpretation - in trying to get an early type of marking to fit a much later (1945) reality. With a much larger W-SS/other that was no longer a completely Germanic organization, having a number of conscripts and foreigners fill its ranks. With the daggers themselves an item that had not even been manufactured for a number of years. FP

[w4uvv]

Good source + bad source = Erroneous post

John, If the link you posted was taken directly from the manual (which I believe it is) I don't think that it is in error when taken in context of what the writers at the time thought was correct based on their wartime studies. But rather an error of interpretation - in trying to get an early type of marking to fit a much later (1945) reality. With a much larger W-SS/other that was no longer a completely Germanic organization, having a number of conscripts and foreigners fill its ranks. With the daggers themselves an item that had not even been manufactured for a number of years. FP

No, I simply made an erroneous leap of logic post marrying info from one legitimate source list of SS districts (i.e. TM-E-451) factored in with what in hindsight proved to be an individual's erroneous opinion post.

John

[charlie7]

Emil, Sorry if I was mis-understood. I have no doubts about the dagger being authentic. I had forgtotten that those SS contract daggers were earlier made than the other RZM daggers. The numbers may well be period simply because if someone were going to "fake" an ss serial number they would at least make the numbers all the same and legitimate looking. Question is what are they and what do they mean? Nice dagger. Have a good day! Charlie

[zozole]

No Problem Charlie!

Cheers

Emil

[w4uvv]

Have more photos to aid in dagger id

Hi Emil,

Subsequently to Ross K.'s help in identifying the SS member owner of my dagger this past winter I recently was reading about SS dagger cross guards and remembered I had not performed a detailed examination of my dagger's cross guard internally. Upon removing the cross guard I noticed some dark oxidation accumulation at the base I previously had overlooked. Using wet water cotton scabs I was able to remove most of accumulation.

Looking closely I thought I saw two capital letters imprinted inside. Moving outside in the sunlight there definitely is a capital letter "A" on one side of the cross guard hole and a capital "R" on opposite side both the same size and in the same viewing plane.

I took a picture and both letters can be easily seen.

I cannot post a picture of it. Can you pm me via this forum or if you have my regular email address send me your email address again. My main desktop drive C failed recently and I had to reinstall XP. When that happens I lose all my email addresses. I thought I had kept yours but I can't find it.

Tnx.
John

[Craig H]

I read it 983106 . The guy doing the job obviously wasnt real concerned about doing a nice job , rather getting the job done . It would be easy to invert the stamps if youre not paying attention . Good looking dagger in decent condition . Some collectors feel these 121/34 daggers were made by E P&S due to many similarities . As was stated , still unidentified at this time . JMO

[Craig H]

Maybe Ross K will comment on weather the SS mann numbers went this high during the early period ?

[RossK]

SS Mann No. 98 306 can be identified. With a couple of very rare exceptions that may be typos, SS membership (Ausweis) numbers run into the low 500,000's. Only members of the Allgemeine-SS received SS membership numbers until about 1936 when new Allgemeine -SS members directly joining the Verfügungstruppe (SS-VT) did not get one. Those that entered directly into the Waffen-SS without ever being a member of the Allgemeine-SS did not receive a unique membership number. They were tracked by their birthdate. The highest numbered SS dagger I have actually seen has the SS No. 314 532 and is pictured on p. 200 in Tom Wittmann's Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS. I have been contacted about a couple with numbers in the low 300,000's, but have not seen them.

For more on the SS Ausweis number, you may have interest in an English version of my "Introduction to Researching Numbered SS Daggers" first published in German in 2010 in Ralf Siegert's Die Dienstdolche der Schutzstaffel SS. The PDF file can be downloaded at:

http://www.ssdaggers.com/ResearchingSSDaggers.pdf

I hope you find it useful.

RossK

[w4uvv]

Ross Thanks again for responding

SS Mann No. 98 306 can be identified. With a couple of very rare exceptions that may be typos, SS membership (Ausweis) numbers run into the low 500,000's. Only members of the Allgemeine-SS received SS membership numbers until about 1936 when new Allgemeine -SS members directly joining the Verfügungstruppe (SS-VT) did not get one. Those that entered directly into the Waffen-SS without ever being a member of the Allgemeine-SS did not receive a unique membership number. They were tracked by their birthdate. The highest numbered SS dagger I have actually seen has the SS No. 314 532 and is pictured on p. 200 in Tom Wittmann's Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS. I have been contacted about a couple with numbers in the low 300,000's, but have not seen them.

For more on the SS Ausweis number, you may have interest in an English version of my "Introduction to Researching Numbered SS Daggers" first published in German in 2010 in Ralf Siegert's Die Dienstdolche der Schutzstaffel SS. The PDF file can be downloaded at:

http://www.ssdaggers.com/ResearchingSSDaggers.pdf

I hope you find it useful.

RossK

Ross, I know you are very busy and thanks again for responding to my and other initial posts in Oct 2012 attempting to id this dagger. Initially Emil and Gerd posted a tentative id on the owner and his assignments:

"Obersturmfurher Hermann Selbert, born 08-07-1900, NSDAP number 176209, Assignments: Standarte 62 and 68 part of SS Gruppe West and SS Ober Abschnitt Southwest, Karlsrhue".


Reference one of your posts to this thread #272725 on 10/22/12 07:48 PM EDT Quote: "SS Mann No. 98306 can be identified. That number would be appropriate for a 1934 SS dagger since the SS number was probably assigned in 1933".

The inference from Gerd's post was when you had time possibly you could confirm this SS mann's posted assignments to one of the Standarte(s). There was no subsequent response from you on the subject possibly due to your other time commitments/priorities which is perfectly understandable.

I thought my recent finding the "A" and "R" stampings inside the cross guard might additionally contribute in some minor way to this dagger's history.

I am very comfortable with the dagger's id and period. Thanks again to all who contributed to the effort.

Ross, I appreciate your past contributions not only to this forum but others as well. I recall recently reading your excellent analysis of a Frank SS dagger on Mr. Wittmann's website. Thanks also for the reference information.

John

[RossK]

Hi John:

I have documented SS Mann No. 98 306 to someone else (not Hermann Selbert) in the 47. SS-Standarte.

Happy Memorial Day!

RossK

[w4uvv]

Thanks

Hi John:

I have documented SS Mann No. 98 306 to someone else (not Hermann Selbert) in the 47. SS-Standarte.

Happy Memorial Day!

RossK

Very interesting. Thanks.

John