Some SS Daggers! HELP!

[DR DOLCH]

There has been some "fooling around" with some of these daggers, and do we know what they look like with the blades in the scabbards? # 1 has a (re) blued over pitting scabbard. # 2 probably the same (or paint?) - not 100% sure because of the lighting. # 3 (chained) seems to be OK. FP

Do you think they are reblued because they are RZM?

[Frogprince]

Do you think they are reblued because they are RZM?

No, I'm certain that it's postwar. The pitting is just too deep and that is not the way the Germans did business with newly manufactured items. FP

[GaryMJ]

Whittmann explains and shows the exact trademark and motto in his SS book on page 182.That is not to say that they are not all fakes from along time ago that have turned into originals like the Helbig daggers IMO.That being said many "experts" say they are original.If the other components other than the blade were also made in Spain we are all in trouble.

I'm referring to the motto, not the maker mark. The "rat" style maker mark is scarce but accepted as period by most folks. The motto is the problem on this blade, it doesn't resemble the motto used by Eickhorn or the one shown by Wittmann in his book. These fake blades have been around for years and regularly make an appearance on sites like eBay & Gunbroker, etc... and as far as I know are Spanish in origin.

Red

[David48]

Why ?

Maker marked blades are accepted as an owner upgrade who purchased a chained scabbard and added his
previously purchased marked dagger. Initial production 1936 chained model daggers are considered to
have had unmarked blades.

[Frogprince]

Maker marked blades are accepted as an owner upgrade who purchased a chained scabbard and added his previously purchased marked dagger. Initial production 1936 chained model daggers are considered to have had unmarked blades.

Do you mean a complete M1936 dagger as listed in the SS-Kleiderkasse? As there has been no period evidence produced to date showing the scabbards listed separately. And neither does the original Himmler directive list scabbards separately, just complete daggers. Which of course did not preclude an individual from purchasing or having both (if at the time of purchase they were so entitled). FP

[David48]

Do you mean a complete M1936 dagger as listed in the SS-Kleiderkasse? As there has been no period evidence produced to date showing the scabbards listed separately. And neither does the original Himmler directive list scabbards separately, just complete daggers. Which of course did not preclude an individual from purchasing or having both (if at the time of purchase they were so entitled). FP

FP, I was referring to chained scabbard only, but without any evidence my statement must be incorrect.
What is your take on a maker mark dagger paired with a 1936 chained scabbard?

[Frogprince]

David, As near as I can tell from the images # 3 (the chained dagger) does not show a maker's TM. It has zinc cross guards (correct for steel links). The bluing looks OK with some slight surface rust. And it should be OK unless I've missed and image or two. With # 2 having the TM and district mark on the cross guard. Best Regards, Fred

[DR DOLCH]

I'm referring to the motto, not the maker mark. The "rat" style maker mark is scarce but accepted as period by most folks. The motto is the problem on this blade, it doesn't resemble the motto used by Eickhorn or the one shown by Wittmann in his book. These fake blades have been around for years and regularly make an appearance on sites like eBay & Gunbroker, etc... and as far as I know are Spanish in origin.

Red

It looks just like it to me.The funky T the pointed I they are all there in the picture Wittmann shows. I have been looking a daggers fot 20+ years and don't recall seeing any of these "Rat" daggers made in Spain.Any for sale on the web now?

[Rheingold]

Probably not from spain,but it might be from other countries,eg the CZ,poland,etc.
This motto pattern is too strange for an period dagger.
This pattern appears on eick and böker fakes.
Fact is, i would pass on this rat tail.

[David48]

David, As near as I can tell from the images # 3 (the chained dagger) does not show a maker's TM. It has zinc cross guards (correct for steel links). The bluing looks OK with some slight surface rust. And it should be OK unless I've missed and image or two. With # 2 having the TM and district mark on the cross guard. Best Regards, Fred

Fred, thanks, I agree with your assessment.
Regards,
David

[GaryMJ]

It looks just like it to me.The funky T the pointed I they are all there in the picture Wittmann shows. I have been looking a daggers fot 20+ years and don't recall seeing any of these "Rat" daggers made in Spain.Any for sale on the web now?

The main thing to look out for on the Spanish fake blades is that the points over the "i"s are triangular, I've never seen this trait on any of the motto variations on period daggers. To be honest, this is the first time I've seen a rat tail mark on one of these blades. The other tell-tale sign with these daggers is that the motto is always too far down the blade, the steel has a different "sheen" and colour, and they are often slightly narrower with a different shape to the point. The Spanish made blades don't have crossgrain, yet the early Reddick copies have too much and it's very deep, but I don't think it's a Reddick, his mottos were pretty accurate.

Red

[zozole]

I would go for the chained one
The 188 is not in best condition but it looks legit

[josh105]

I wanted to thank everyone for such a great discussion and a positive outcome in deciphering these daggers. Unfortunately I wasn't able to score any, but I consider it a win anyways with the wealth of knowledge that was shared here in the past couple days. I have learnt an abundance of information!

Hopefully this thread can prove useful in the future!

Thanks again to everyone, and thanks to WAF for taking us to the next level of collecting!