Help to Date 2 x Fighting Knives.

[Robbo]

Hi
I recently came across the two knives below and I've been informed that they might be German.
The larger of the two is marked on the blade "Abourgade" with the image of a head. The scabbard is steel and has the number 979 stamped across the top.
The second knife which has a wodden ribbed handle does'nt appear to have any markings although I'm nor sure if there's a number or lettering stamped into the wood as I can't make it out.
My question is, would they be German and if so, what period would they date from.
Any help would be gratefully received
Robbo

[sb98]

They're both from WWI. The top one is French and the lower one is German. The German one would have had black paint on the scabbard and it's been re-tipped. In the last picture I think the wood is just dented a little, I don't think it has letters or numbers on it. It's a common pattern, the French knife is the more valuable of the two.

[Robbo]

Thanks Tim
Your information is very much appreciated.
Robbo

[Reibert-Austria]

The french one is a "Couteau Poignard Mle. 1916", aka "Le Vengeur de 1870", used in the french Army till 1939.
In the Wehrmacht this knife was also in use as "Dolch 116 (f)"

The German WWI trench knife is "re-tipped" indeed, but there was a reason why ! ...

Soldier´s in WWI sometimes bluntened the tips of theirs knive´s.
The dull blade easier slipped off the ribs of the enemy soldier and went into the (vital) organs.

A "sharp" tip of the knife often get stuck in the bones ...

[Reibert-Austria]

... The larger of the two is marked on the blade "Abourgade" with the image of a head. ...

The maker is Bourgarde

Some more maker of the "Vengeur":

Au Lion
Le Vengeur de 1870
Chabrol
L. Pradel
Astier-Prodon
Coutellerie Besset
Pataud
Delaire
SGCO
Gonon
M
76

[sb98]

The french one is a "Couteau Poignard Mle. 1916", aka "Le Vengeur de 1870", used in the french Army till 1939.
In the Wehrmacht this knife was also in use as "Dolch 116 (f)"

The German WWI trench knife is "re-tipped" indeed, but there was a reason why ! ...

Soldier´s in WWI sometimes bluntened the tips of theirs knive´s.
The dull blade easier slipped off the ribs of the enemy soldier and went into the (vital) organs.

A "sharp" tip of the knife often get stuck in the bones ...

That's possible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the reason this knife, or any knife that's been around almost 100 years, has a re-tipped blade. But, that's a lot better story than "broke off tip while opening a can" or "my dad used it as a camping knife it as a kid". Anything could have done that from the time it was new until the present day and you see all sorts of old knives with re-tipped blades, not just trench knives, and they're not that way because someone was worried about it getting stuck in a rib. You could also make the argument that a blunt tip would be a disadvantage penetrating thick overcoats, leather jerkins, etc. Not saying it's not possible, but it's a stretch to say for sure that's the reason it has been re-tipped, IMO.

[Reibert-Austria]

That's possible, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that's the reason this knife, or any knife that's been around almost 100 years, has a re-tipped blade. But, that's a lot better story than "broke off tip while opening a can" or "my dad used it as a camping knife it as a kid". Anything could have done that from the time it was new until the present day and you see all sorts of old knives with re-tipped blades, not just trench knives, and they're not that way because someone was worried about it getting stuck in a rib. You could also make the argument that a blunt tip would be a disadvantage penetrating thick overcoats, leather jerkins, etc. Not saying it's not possible, but it's a stretch to say for sure that's the reason it has been re-tipped, IMO.

I had some interesting talks with deer-hunters, (also veterans), in the past ...

In my collection I also do have several trench knives, showing such "blunt" knife points ! ...

[sb98]

I had some interesting talks with deer-hunters, (also veterans), in the past ...

In my collection I also do have several trench knives, showing such "blunt" knife points ! ...

We may be talking about two different things. I'm not talking about a knive whose sharp point was rounded a little. These knives have been kicking around for almost 100 years and they didn't all stop being used when the war ended. Even during the war they were used for things other than stabbing people. I'd bet most found today that are "re-tipped" were damaged and the tip broke off at some point, just like any other old knife you find. One with an undamged, slightly rounded point...it's possible.

[Reibert-Austria]

... I'd bet most found today that are "re-tipped" were damaged and the tip broke off at some point, just like any other old knife you find. ...

as you may suppose ...

[sb98]

... In my collection I also do have several trench knives, showing such "blunt" knife points ! ...

The knives in my picture are typical of reshaped tips due to minor damage, IMO. I don't think the new tips would be any less likely to get stuck in something than the original tip, and I don't believe they were altered for that purpose. But that's just my interpretation, I don't know what happened to these pieces before I got them. It's certainly possible they were reshaped on purpose as to be less likely to get stuck in a rib, but I doubt it.

[Robbo]

I'd just like to thank everybody for the comments which I've found very interetsing. As to the tip, well, I suppose it could have been shortened for any of the given reasons. After 100 years no one will know for sure.
I'm not a collector of edged weapons and will therefore be putting them on the Edged Weapons Table. I'm not really sure as to the values so I'll just have to take a stab at them "pardon the pun"
Thanks to everyone for the information.
Robbo