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**ValhallaMilitaria** · 11-17-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by flatlander View Post

I stand corrected, that is an F.A. Helbig dagger M7/73 (thought it was an M7/13 in the original posters pics) Steinbach makers were known for their terrible blade etching, this one seems to be no exception. I believe this is a real dagger, they just had poor quality etchings.

My thoughts exactly though the original deal was that if he did not like it he could return it. Originality only came into it as a secondary issue IMO.

**heyst56** · 11-17-2011, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by ValhallaMilitaria View Post

.Thanks also to Signalman for the huge close ups of the blade....late war poor quality and typical of RZM to me which is why I prefer to collect early blades myself.
Regards,
Eric

not all late war RZM blades are poor quality

Hans

.

**Ron Weinand** · 11-17-2011, 05:01 PM

Bad Bad Bad. Another red flag to me is the position of the eagle in the grip. Too High! JMO.

**ValhallaMilitaria** · 11-17-2011, 07:40 PM

The eagle position issue has been discussed endlessly with no real final word, anyone have another one of these made by this maker to post here? maybe we can compare them? that would be really helpful. Also, if this is not real....then who made it? where? and why? In my experience I have found many fake SS daggers but no fake SA's....I won't offer this for sale here again.

**ValhallaMilitaria** · 11-17-2011, 07:40 PM

I stand corrected....but I have never encountered one like yours!

Originally posted by heyst56 View Post

not all late war RZM blades are poor quality

Hans

.

**ValhallaMilitaria** · 11-17-2011, 07:46 PM

So its an Atwood fake? or is there still any doubt? were there any Helbigs made that were real? did they make any SA's? or just Lufts? This is getting confusing fast....Ron- are you an author?

**R.R.** · 11-17-2011, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by ValhallaMilitaria View Post

The eagle position issue has been discussed endlessly with no real final word, anyone have another one of these made by this maker to post here? maybe we can compare them? that would be really helpful. Also, if this is not real....then who made it? where? and why? In my experience I have found many fake SS daggers but no fake SA's....I won't offer this for sale here again.

Hi Eric,

Here are pictures for comparations from 3 others Hellbigs I collect somewhere on the net. I observed all five (including your's) Hellbigs I had see until now are NSKK and none SA. Seems to me Hellbig etching is very superficial and very susceptible to be damaged by scabbard running marks.

**ValhallaMilitaria** · 11-18-2011, 06:29 AM

Thanks! really....this helps me quite a bit and I appreciate the time you took to post these and to me mine looks quite a bit like them.

Originally posted by R.R. View Post

Hi Eric,

Here are pictures for comparations from 3 others Hellbigs I collect somewhere on the net. I observed all five (including your's) Hellbigs I had see until now are NSKK and none SA. Seems to me Hellbig etching is very superficial and very susceptible to be damaged by scabbard running marks.

**Frogprince** · 11-18-2011, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by ValhallaMilitaria View Post

Thanks! really....this helps me quite a bit and I appreciate the time you took to post these and to me mine looks quite a bit like them.

Eric, No argument there, as all of them do have similar characteristics which are also shared with the “SS” versions. But then so do the different batches of the “Olympic” DJ knives (but with better quality control).

But setting that aside for the moment, the theoretical “late war - RZM” argument mentioned earlier has some serious credibility issues. “Late war” means what? Because dagger/civilian production ceased in early 1942. And while it’s true that later daggers had decreased quality. It was more a matter of the scarcity of materials rather than workmanship. Things like thinner and thinner plating on the zinc and steel fittings, and then towards the end even the quality of the zinc alloy itself got worse.

But not “Helbig”. Because along with the truly miserable/substandard workmanship like the etching, the daggers all have heavy plating on the (magnetic - not zinc) crossguards and scabbard mounts. So unless it’s assumed that Helbig had a secret pipeline to the supply of strategic metals - how could they be “late war”?? Regards, FP

**Joe Mc** · 11-18-2011, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by flatlander View Post

From the close up of the grip that looks to be real. In the photos you provided it does appear to have a crack in the grip though. Better close up shots of the blade would help. Shuttlehoffer was a prolific maker of SA daggers so getting a known original to compare it to shouldn't be difficult.

I seen that crack too, thought it was just me until I seen this

**ValhallaMilitaria** · 11-18-2011, 09:09 PM

Well said FP and you will forgive my lack of attention please with regards to my 'late war' comment, I am having a very bad week at work....I won't go into it here but it looks like soon I will be out of work.
Anyway, its amazing how things like losing ones job (likely) can put things back into perspective.
Best,
Eric

Originally posted by Frogprince View Post

Eric, No argument there, as all of them do have similar characteristics which are also shared with the “SS” versions. But then so do the different batches of the “Olympic” DJ knives (but with better quality control).

But setting that aside for the moment, the theoretical “late war - RZM” argument mentioned earlier has some serious credibility issues. “Late war” means what? Because dagger/civilian production ceased in early 1942. And while it’s true that later daggers had decreased quality. It was more a matter of the scarcity of materials rather than workmanship. Things like thinner and thinner plating on the zinc and steel fittings, and then towards the end even the quality of the zinc alloy itself got worse.

But not “Helbig”. Because along with the truly miserable/substandard workmanship like the etching, the daggers all have heavy plating on the (magnetic - not zinc) crossguards and scabbard mounts. So unless it’s assumed that Helbig had a secret pipeline to the supply of strategic metals - how could they be “late war”?? Regards, FP

**Manalishi** · 11-18-2011, 09:29 PM

How did Helbig get away with such sub-standard workmanship? I thought one of the functions of the RZM was quality control?

**R.R.** · 11-19-2011, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Frogprince View Post

Eric, No argument there, as all of them do have similar characteristics which are also shared with the “SS” versions. But then so do the different batches of the “Olympic” DJ knives (but with better quality control).

But setting that aside for the moment, the theoretical “late war - RZM” argument mentioned earlier has some serious credibility issues. “Late war” means what? Because dagger/civilian production ceased in early 1942. And while it’s true that later daggers had decreased quality. It was more a matter of the scarcity of materials rather than workmanship. Things like thinner and thinner plating on the zinc and steel fittings, and then towards the end even the quality of the zinc alloy itself got worse.

But not “Helbig”. Because along with the truly miserable/substandard workmanship like the etching, the daggers all have heavy plating on the (magnetic - not zinc) crossguards and scabbard mounts. So unless it’s assumed that Helbig had a secret pipeline to the supply of strategic metals - how could they be “late war”?? Regards, FP

Hi FP,

If I'm understanding you correctly, the proposition here is: RZM Hellbig daggers are a post war creation from a faker? I'm correct?

Seems to me very strange all five RZM Hellbigs I had see until now has only NSKK scabbards and none SA, there is a reason for it? May be it was more easy and less expensive for the faker to paint all scabbards in black (SS includeds) than mix a correct SA brown collor for part of the batch.

But the question for me is: Why renamed dealers sell these Hellbigs with these issues as original ones? I remember one of the five NSKK Hellbigs I had see was a tagged one from the Wittmann's page.

**RevYJ** · 11-19-2011, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Manalishi View Post

How did Helbig get away with such sub-standard workmanship? I thought one of the functions of the RZM was quality control?

Helbig also made early maker marked SA daggers. They're very rare and I've only been able to examine two in hand. While the blade etch isn't remarkable compared with other makers, the inlays and fit of the grip were very poor. On the Helbig in my collection, the eagle location is actually quite low. So with this in mind, plus all the non-SA Helbigs out there which exhibit poor etching, the company has a demonstrated track record of substandard work all through the TR period. How they consistently got away with it I don't know.

As has been otherwise noted quality issues seem to have been a common problem in Steinbach. I'm not sure if this spilled over into other mundane production items like scissors and thimbles, so maybe someone can fill us in. It's probably worth starting a separate thread just to compare crummy Steinbach daggers- I'll look and see what I've got.

Regarding this particular NSKK I'll remain agnostic. But the firm is already known for their bad etching and if Suhl could have their own distinctive grip then why not Steinbach?

**Frogprince** · 11-19-2011, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by R.R. View Post

Hi FP, If I'm understanding you correctly, the proposition here is: RZM Hellbig daggers are a post war creation from a faker? I'm correct? ...........

R.R., If you reread Ron Weinand’s comments you will see the same thing. You might also want to check out some of the “SS” related Helbig threads. But I did not always have that opinion, and years ago I thought they were OK because “everybody” said so. But then I began to see that there was a lot guessing going on including some by so-called experts - also seeing the “follow the herd” instinct in action.

Originally posted by R.R. View Post

But the question for me is: Why renamed dealers sell these Hellbigs with these issues as original ones? I remember one of the five NSKK Hellbigs I had see was a tagged one from the Wittmann's page.

Some of the “Olympic” knives have bags, and there are still supplies of bags and tags old and new waiting to find something to be attached to. So just because an item is sold by a “someone” that does not necessarily make it real. And (if needed) I can go into some other items that in today’s collecting world are going to generate some "serious discussion”. Fakes in books etc. etc. - that years ago were accepted as OK.

Originally posted by RevYJ View Post

Helbig also made early maker marked SA daggers. They're very rare and I've only been able to examine two in hand. While the blade etch isn't remarkable compared with other makers, the inlays and fit of the grip were very poor. On the Helbig in my collection, the eagle location is actually quite low...........

RevYJ, But all of these “RZM” types with the heavy duty plating in new or near new condition are by comparison fairly common. With something else that may have been overlooked being one of the reasons why the RZM was created - such as better quality control for an industry that had gotten out of hand. Regards to both, FP

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