Marine NSKK dagger ?

[Frogprince]

Don't get me wrong--I'd love to find evidence that there was a specific SA dagger variant for the Marine SA. I agree, in general 'no evidence is not proof', but after researching and studying (for a hopefully forthcoming book about the SA) every available SA period bulletin, regulation, RZM price listing and Herstellungenvorschrift, dagger manufacturer catalog, uniform booklet, the Handbuch der SA, SA Mann newspaper, Uniformenmarkt, plus checking with others who have researched the USNA, München and Berlin archives, I would say that 1 artist done illustration (which apparently was corrected in subsequent editions of the Org. Buch) being the only indication of a black dagger would be pretty strong circumstantial evidence that these occasionally found black daggers were not for the Marine SA. I've had a number of period owner painted scabbard SA to NSKK daggers over the years, and have seen a handful with black painted handles that have come from veteran stuff brought back--my opinion is that they are NSKK daggers converted by overzealous NSKK members.
Erich

Artist's illustrations are just that, the artist's sense of what in his eyes he wants to put on paper or canvas, not photographs. In the past period SMF catalog illustrations were cited as unquestionable "proof" that Army and 2nd model Luftwaffe daggers were made with not white, but instead colored grips. With the verifiable hard evidence pointing in the other direction as white being how they manufactured. With the artwork just being an interesting footnote as to how it can occasionally be misleading without period corroboration. FP

[davesmedals]

Are there different types of NSKK daggers?

some being refered to as ''marine''

Does ''Marine'' mean the fittings are coated with the gold colour?

[Colorado]

Hi Serge (wags) and all - Thought I would bring this up.

I didn't know about this thread until I decided to sell my collection and called Serge. The dagger below I obtained in the Netherlands in 2000. This was back in the early days of forums and WAF did not exist.

I forget when Germandagger's server crashed, but it destroyed some great information from back when this was a very small online collector community.

At GDC.com another dagger and mine were posted nearly at the same time. Both were made by Anton Wingen, both had same gilt finish and both were from Gau "No". That thread and the other dagger are lost to time. Serge remembers it, because he goes back to those days.

I have no opinion on whether or not M33 Marine SA's existed, but I do believe this dagger was a special order made by the Wingen company.

The blade is as mint as it looks. The gilt is everywhere (fittings, buckle, clip, eagle) as you can see and has normal wear in places one would expect. The finish does not come off (like nicotine) with an alcohol swab.

Enjoy and feel free to discuss.

[Colorado]

2

[Colorado]

3

[Colorado]

4

[Serge M.]

Jeff, I'm glad you decided to post this beauty SA marine of yours.
It seems like no matter how hard we try to find out about these brass/copper coated M-33's the printed info is not there to be found. However, those of us who have been around this hobby for awhile know full well that they existed- because we ran across them.
Unfortunately they look so close to nicotine coated dagger that I believe that some genuine marine daggers where unloaded as a Veteran Den 'Lucky Strike' Special.
On the other hand, most you see listed today as 'marine' SA/NSKK Mod. 33's are fakes.

There are some details that we hold close to the vest to tell a real one.

Let's see if we can get out veterans out to make a comment on this one- Erich, Ron, Bob, Ron, JR, Manfred, Adam, Paul, Rev and anyone else, as this is a rich topic as well as a mystery that should be explored with all our experiences put together.

Serge

[777]

No doubt it's a great dagger, but there is one thing that comes to my mind all the time when I'm looking at those pictures: the "golden" tone of the hanger buckle, SA button and the eagle very similar to the colour of the crossguards/scabard fittings. I guess there is still a nicotine deposit on every nickel silver part. Not trying to say the crossguards and scabbard fittings are not gilded, especially if Jeff "tested" them but the "tobacco patina" is little bit misleading here.

[Tiger 1]

Just some thoughts from a different angle.

Shellac, similar to varnish, was often used in period furniture finishing and IS disolvable in alcohol. Perhaps some of the 'tobacco stain' we sometimes see is an attempt at preserving the metal finish with shellac instead of laquer that has aged to a yellowish tinge?

Then again, we do know that some makers such as Eickhorn used a laquer or similar substance when finishing their grips while many early makers also used laquer to clear coat early browned and blued scabbards.

Another possiblity that could point us in a different direction is garnered from old gunsmithing books. Linseed oil was used to 'kill' further action of the browning acids used to color barrels and other ferrus metal parts on weapons. We do know that this browning and rust bluing process was used to color the scabbards of early SA and SS daggers. Unfortunately, this rust browning and bluing has been popularly misidentified as 'anodising'. Anodising only works on aluminum and not ferrus (iron) based metals.

Dried Linseed oil also ages to a yellowish tone over time. Perhaps someone could follow the SEM procedures used to identify the various elements in the core paints used on Knights Crosses on these yet unknown colorings on SA daggers.

Just a few thoughts to mull over.

All the best.

Tony

[Colorado]

Although I already said, an alcohol swab does not remove this, I would share some observations since I have personally obtained "nicotine" Vet find daggers over the years. I do not believe it's "fire gilt", so acetone would likely destroy it as does other items.

It is known among many of us, that it's the absence of wear and use on gilt pieces that makes advanced collectors nervous or wear to gilt that doesn't match the overall piece. Similar I suppose to a Camouflage helmet.

When viewing the dagger, please note wear patterns and where the gilt is located and where it is not located.

It is not located on the scabbard ring and it is not located on the belt loop ring. That is significant because in my experience nicotine patina covers uniformly as it sets in the "Vet's study" or wherever.

The belt loop and grip loop that make up 2/3's of a 3-piece hanger and were not issued at the factory. Those are bought by the SA Mann. Where this nicotine (or gilt colored) patina on the loop ring? It's not there. There is only dark patina as is normal.

Secondly, the ring on the scabbard has no gilt. See photo below. That is because it wore away through normal use as it would be the highest wear point on the entire dagger during normal uses. If there were gilt there I suspect nicotine. Note the surrounding wear of the gilt around ring in the photo below. This not what I have ever seen on "nicotine" pieces.

Lastly, look at the wear points overall. You will note them on the corners of the cross guards and more importantly at the scabbard ball. Again, this is not something you would expect from a "nicotine" piece. It is a good thing there is no gilt there, that is what you want to see on a gilt piece. See photo below.

Finally, since it's not blued, anodized or fire gilt, I would think this was hand applied and why there is an appearance of thick and thin in places. Human error. Maybe cottage done, maybe done at the unit itself, maybe done by the SA Mann.......Heck I could be completely wrong and it is nicotine and I just need to scrub the metal a little harder.

[Colorado]

Scabbard ball from the other side and the obverse clip. Note, because the ball got "crunched" a little, the indentation caused by crunch actually protected the "gilt" and all around it is worn away.

Here are two curious observations. First, the obverse scabbard fittings is uniformly lighter than the reverse. I suspect the reverse was painted first, then turned over and then the obverse side was painted. The dagger obverse and reverse are similar in color. So, the last coat applied to obverse scabbard likely was not applied as thick as all other parts of the dagger.

One last crazy thing. Did you look at the reverse lower scabbard fitting (just above the ball) in the post above? Do you see a fingerprint? Almost like it was painted and turned over while it was still tacky and 80 years later the fingerprint is visible from age.