I'm very new to daggers so would welcome your opinions on this dagger which may be a Marine NSKK. Many thanks,
Jeff
Jeff
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close ups -
more to comeComment
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last onesComment
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Can't comment if it's Marine or not but looks like a nice dagger. First time I have seen this maker.Comment
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According to my information there´s until today no evidence that these completely black painted SA daggers are SA Marine daggers, but rather simple early NSKK daggers.
Members of the Motor SA have received as of 1934 regular brown SA service daggers. After transferring the Motor SA into the NSKK, the NSKK members had to change their daggers from brown scabbards to black ones. Many overpainted therefore their brown scabbards with black color. Single members even painted accidentally the grips with black color resulting in these completely black painted daggers. Maybe they misunderstood the order. Who knows.
The maker is not often seen. All in all a nice dagger. Unfortunatley not in best condition, but still nice for display in a collection.Comment
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Here´s my black PackComment
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Thanks to you all for your help.
Best wishes,
JeffComment
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OK, but "illustrator's mistake" is still a speculation. No evidence is not a proof. I'd be the first to agree with Erich's opinion, if only "all black" period painted SA daggers wouldn't pop up from time to time.
Of course, they may be "NSKK man's" mistake, but there's no proof for that as well.Comment
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I believe that's a photo of mine that I posted on an earlier thread. It's from a 1937 copy of Organisationbuch der NSDAP issued to NSKK Motor-Standarte 55, Stuttgart. The daggers very definitely show black scabbards as well as black handles.
As per the quote in the birdshead thread, there doesn't appear to be any reference to a black grip in the text. Admittedly I don't speak German, but I scanned for the key translations and couldn't find them. So the possibility of this being merely an illustrator's error is plausible.
But I'm sure you can all imagine what may have happened. An officer thumbing through the illustrations could very well have insisted that his troops display "picture perfect" uniforms. The results for us being the occasional all black SA/NSKK dagger. Certainly not proper and correct for the period, but according to the book in my possession published by the NSDAP, absolutely textbook.
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Originally Posted by 777 View Post
Oh yes, there is some evidence.
777, check this post from Erich Benndorf in the thread "SA Birdshead dagger"
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Originally Posted by Erich Benndorff View Post
One that comes to mind is the Marine SA dagger--there is no period description of a special dagger indicated for the Marine SA, no listing in any period dagger producer's catalogue nor notation in the price list of gold fittings or black grip/ scabbard being available options, no mention from the OSAF in the SA Verordnungsblatt, no listing in the RZM price lists, Uniformen-Markt, or anywhere else I've been able to reference. Likewise in the numerous period SA uniform guides the uniform and accoutrements are described in great detail but the dagger is only noted as being a standard model. The only period suggestion of a different colored dagger is a color plate drawing of a Marine SA uniform in one edition of the Organisation Book (I don't remember which one, but it was a late 30s printing) which I am sure must have been an illustrator's mistake, since it is not described in the text area whereas the rest of the uniform is.
ErichComment
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Don't get me wrong--I'd love to find evidence that there was a specific SA dagger variant for the Marine SA. I agree, in general 'no evidence is not proof', but after researching and studying (for a hopefully forthcoming book about the SA) every available SA period bulletin, regulation, RZM price listing and Herstellungenvorschrift, dagger manufacturer catalog, uniform booklet, the Handbuch der SA, SA Mann newspaper, Uniformenmarkt, plus checking with others who have researched the USNA, München and Berlin archives, I would say that 1 artist done illustration (which apparently was corrected in subsequent editions of the Org. Buch) being the only indication of a black dagger would be pretty strong circumstantial evidence that these occasionally found black daggers were not for the Marine SA. I've had a number of period owner painted scabbard SA to NSKK daggers over the years, and have seen a handful with black painted handles that have come from veteran stuff brought back--my opinion is that they are NSKK daggers converted by overzealous NSKK members.
ErichFestina lente!Comment
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It makes a lot of sense to me, however I must say I've found that illustration quite intriguing. Unfortunately we are few decades too late with our study - how great it would be to ask the ex-members of Marine-SA about that.Comment
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Originally posted by Erich B. View Post
It is interesting to note that the above maker F. Plucker is also the maker on this RZM piece.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=nskk+marine
Marine NSKK chained, although are scarce we do see them on occasion. Finding colored fittings on mod-33 versions for SA or NSKK many say it didn't happen. However the evidence of G.I's bringing them home will state a lot IMHO.
'Colorado' has a wonderful example of a Marine Mod.33- SA dagger.
It seems to me that this small maker F. Plucker had a contract to make these rare daggers. One with silver fitting (SA ?), one with gold fittings (NSKK?)
What are the odds that they didn't? Here are two daggers by the same scarce maker. I find it very interesting to see this connection.
Hope we can continue on this subject. What are your thoughts?
-wagner-Comment
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