Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Serge M.]

Serge, i never ever seen one of these super rarity's until now .

Thanks Cogwheel

Scott, you just don't see them. Nobody really knows what the qualifications to be awarded one was.
These are honestly rare artifacts.

Ron mentions all known specimens were named to to industrialists who supported the NSDAP in 1933.
Were they only made and presented for that purpose?
Then what about the above silver version with no motto, not named and with black scabbard?

Coggy, the fact that you got yours as a repro doesn't mean it is. I think the damage on it tilts it to being a authentic example.

As you know I purchased a rare dagger on this very forum where everyone but you thought it was a fantasy.
I thought it was real since I have been looking for one for 30 years.
Ask me if I care if others think it's fake.
As Lakeside Paul says: 'We are all still learning'. That's a saying you can take to the bank.


-serge-

[cogwheel]

Wags: Thanks for your input on that issue.
Regarding Craig Gottlieb's SPD I understand that when the dagger was found the blade had extensive surface rusting and the scabbard leather shell had dryrotted. As a result an effort had been made to resurface the blade which, of course, would unfortunately erase any inscriptions that were present. I would certainly agree with that course of action because the rust would continue to destroy the blade further if not arrested and removed.

Now, if I had found this particular dagger I would have constructed a leather scabbard shell using brown leather and would have gold plated all the fittings to make them conform with the documented configurations. Since the dagger had apparently been stored under less than ideal conditions an argument could have been made that the original gilting had just worn off.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Hi, I just saw this thread, and although I haven't had time to read through it all (new baby in the house), but yes . . . this piece was restored and I wanted to make sure the collecting public knew that. NOTHING was done to the actual hilt and scabbard fittings . . . they seem to retain a silver wash over nickel silver, so I doubt this piece was ever plated. What the silver version was for . . . no idea.

Nobody is really sure what this dagger type was used for, and but for some factory photographs discovered by Tom Johnson years ago, debate would have continued as to whether or not this was a 3rd Reich period produced item, for the German market. My personal opinion, based upon another bird's head type dagger I located several years ago in the hands of a LIVING veteran (one with a beautiful blade with raised presentation, but more of a letter-opener sized blade, with a very rudimentary scabbard), is that this was some sort of very early dagger sold by Eickhorn as a special order. Although it seems that the bulk of those known are SA examples (all but one, actually), there really were not that many made. FYI here's the "DAF/NSBO" dagger on my website archive:

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/engine/...Filter=Gallery

[Jo Rivett]

Nobody is really sure what this dagger type was used for, and but for some factory photographs discovered by Tom Johnson years ago,

Where could these Factory-Photos be viewed? are they in one of his books?

[Craig Gottlieb]

I believe one of the photos is in one of his books, but I don't know which.

[F. J. Stephens]

Sa birdsheads - rubbish!

OK, I am going to join this debate - and I will state upfront that I do do not believe that these so-salled "SA Birdshead Daggers" are real. In fact I think that the "original piece" shown in Atwood is also a forgery created at that time to fool him - and also some others. I believe that I have the evidence to support this.

The piece that Mr. Gottlieb has presented - being an "NSBO and DAF" cross organaisational award is clearly faked up. That of course is my opinion - he himself does not agree with me

Mr. Gottlieb's photos I already have - but let him produce his own images first just to show that I am not tampering with his material - and then I will explain why this item is wrong.

Mr. Ron Weinand - you know of an "orginal" SA Birdshead - how do you know it is original? What photographs and evidence do you supply? You are now being taken to task to prove what you say.

Frederick J. Stephens

[Craig Gottlieb]

Fred, we've been through this before, and I won't rehash the fact that I bought this from the LIVING veteran, who I audio-recorded, telling me his story of where and when he found it - before May 1945, just after crossing into Germany. This goes DIRECTLY back to the veteran, and pre-dates May 1945. He found it in a desk drawer in some sort of country manor he was staying in. Believe it or don't believe it, but it's the truth. There's no debate here Fred - you're welcome to your opinion. Tie your theory to a pock mark in the pommel, or your view of what "should have been done" but at the end of the day, I had a living veteran with a clear memory of events.

[Ron Weinand]

Fred, I gave my photos of the dagger in the German Youth veteran's hands to Jason Burmeister for the upcoming book he is working on and they were taken before digital, so I guess you will have to waite.
Also, the German veteran lived in the Solingen area and got the dagger from his neighbor (the one who it was awarded and inscribed to) right after the war and has had it since 1945. What more can I say.

[Garry M.]

http://www.adroystermilitaria.com/Gu...are_Badge.html

[Jo Rivett]

Thanks for the direction Craig Gottlieb. i will do my best to try and find them, although i don't have his books so that will take time.
I cant comment on the dagger either because i know far too little about daggers. All i can say, and i am sure that many would agree with me, that trying to sell a Seventy Thousand Dollar item on the basis of a VET story is not only absurd, but quite naive. Is it not true also that Mr F. J. Stephens has been collecting and studying Blades of all kind since before people like Mr Burmeister and Gottlieb were born? (no insults intended, just merely trying to elaborate a bit on the Experience advantage)

I saw the link to the dagger for sale here a day ago, and was under the impression that these were all to well known Fantasy items created in the mid 1960`s ? that's why i had to join this thread and see what the outcome is, it would be a grand day indeed if any proof is found that these were actually Legit TR items after all.

Looking forward to following this thread

[DR DOLCH]

Someone needs to write a book about the life of Atwood.I would buy it in a heart beat.

[Mac 66]

Someone needs to write a book about the life of Atwood.I would buy it in a heart beat.

Great Idea

[Ron Weinand]

Already been started and near completion.

[rajko84]

Someone needs to write a book about the life of Atwood.I would buy it in a heart beat.

I agree

[Craig Gottlieb]

Sorry, but I don't have to rely on a veteran story to sell a dagger. I rely on my reputation, which in all but 1% of uniformed circles, is quite good. People vote with their dollars, and my clients are conscientious and thorough. Besides, there is a BIG difference between a "story" and "provenance." And a living veteran who the owner of a dagger can speak to, is worth a thousand "vet stories." Those with extensive experience buying direct from vets, like Ron Weinand, will attest to this. It's this kind of experience that gives us a clearer understanding of what actually existed during the period.