Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Jo Rivett]

JoeW: I think I remember you as the fearless crusader who would launch a campaign to drive all those folks who sell fake medals and badges out of business. That was 6 years ago.
Any progress on that mission or did it finally, like this thread, run out of steam?

Cogwheel, you might want to see this thread vanish, many others dont, so please dont give the mods a reason and stick to the dagger.

[Frogprince]

As far a Chip Gambino's dagger is concerned, It has the long necked eagle in the pommel - like mine. However, it has a plain blade with the SA motto. There is no dedication.

So maybe it had a new blade added to it?? Because the fittings are the same as the one posted below. Minus of course the fitted case facing the wrong way, the worn strap, and the late tag.

BTW: In case it's been overlooked, what is being read is this thread. The books are on the shelf. Except when someone goes to pull one out to post some information - the good, the bad, the faked, the disguised advertisements, so that it can be shared by everyone. FP

http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=534661

[JoeW]

JoeW: I think I remember you as the fearless crusader who would launch a campaign to drive all those folks who sell fake medals and badges out of business. That was 6 years ago.Any progress on that mission or did it finally, like this thread, run out of steam?

I think forum members are digressing from the subject matter of this thread. This tactic was well employed on another forum as a method of introducing personal confrontation in a discussion of repro badges by the famous Reddick firm that eventually led a lock-down of the thread. Moderators should take note.

[JoeW]

duplicate post, sorry

[cogwheel]

JF: I think you ought to thank me because it seems I'm the one who keeps this thread alive.

Frogprince: The dagger you referenced IS a replica - just like mine and the one from Chip Gambino. They have a narrower pommel with the long necked TR eagle only in front. Those are the ones made in the 60s (probably by Atwood), and shouldn't be lumped together with those shown in the books. These are two different productions that should be kept separate.

JoeW: You forgot to mention that it was your posting at the time that caused the lockdown of the topic.

[Jo Rivett]

The dagger you referenced IS a replica - just like mine and the one from Chip Gambino.

Now you are contradicting the Books that you have spoken so highly about, defended with gusto here and followed without question, as Chip Gambinos dagger is featured in the book World war II German War Booty Volume V , page 129, and described as a Rare, unused Presentation Dagger directly from the Eickhorn Factory, including Eickhorn Tag.
Man, this threads got potential, more contradictions on here than in the King James version....

[james m]

who is chip gambino?

In a nutshell; Sterling "Chip" Gambino was a fairly prominent militaria dealer/collector who passed away last year.
Jim

[Jo Rivett]

who is chip gambino?

Click here, N° 5 down on "The List"

[cogwheel]

JF: I don't remember speaking highly of any books. All I ever said was that ALL the books out there say the birdshead is original. Your response implied that all these books are wrong - just a bunch of lies intended for some crooks to make loads of money. If this is the case what references do I have that would tell me the honest-a-goodness truth. So I'm asking you what official document or book or literature has the inside dope on this issue.
Just going through this thread reading all the inputs including all the name calling and personal accusations doesn't provide anyone with a positive impression. If the intent was to provide a comprehensive picture of the 'message' then it sorely missed the target. PAnd pinning that thread only helped moving it it out the way.

[Jo Rivett]

Your response implied that all these books are wrong - just a bunch of lies intended for some crooks to make loads of money.

Cogwheel, why some of these Fake and Fantasy items found their way into earlier books is clear cut, and yes, in the case of James Atwood, he did it in order to open the gates and allow the sales of more, Rare items later on. Why other Authors chose to follow in his footsteps, is not clear cut, and it would not be correct to say that they are all crooks and did it to make money. This Hobby has always been about Reputations, so back in the day, when, especially for an American non - German speaker, research was hard, Archives as we know them today just did not exist, it was the accepted "Thing to do" to just believe someone like Atwood, and follow suit. I have never implied that every Author filled his books with fakes and fantasy in order to make money, and that they are/were all crooks, That is nonsense !

Have you never seen a thread change from good to bad after the right people have seen it and shared info? well that is edzackery what these Older Reference books were, the first Forums (or Fora if you like), someone who had collected items for a while, and then decided to share his items with the Community accompanied by a few of his personal thoughts and opinions. There was no way for these Authors to actually accumulate facts, other than what their piers would tell them, other than what the community at that time would bring forward. Sometimes, the books are also full of lies, made up stories and just plain laughable "facts". But, we don't know why they did it. My personal opinion on "why" is because they wanted to gain a reputation as an Expert, a Militaria Author, just like their piers.. so a few tales here, a few vet stories and hoard find stories wont hurt. The "Internet" and sharing of Information as we know it today, was not even comprehensible back then, so they were most certainly not thinking about getting "caught out" later, or being shown-up all over the world in a matter of minutes when someone scans an item in their book for review.

The word ticked differently back then, so did collectors and so did Authors.

[F. J. Stephens]

Fire gilding

Is it just me or does this cased dagger exhibit NO fire glit gold finish?? The one I handled WAS fire gold glit. ???

Ron, you are specific about stating that the piece you examined was fire gilded - are you sure about this? (Page 22, entry 316). Could it not have been gold electro-plated?

Fire-gilding is applied by creating an amalgam of mercury and gold, and then the mercury is boiled off in a fire, leaving the gold bonded to the metal surface. How are you able to distinguish between that process, and electro-plating?

Frederick J. Stephens

[Jo Rivett]

Fire-gilding is applied by creating an amalgam of mercury and gold, and then the mercury is boiled off in a fire, leaving the gold bonded to the metal surface. How are you able to distinguish between that process, and electro-plating?

Why the same way that all the self proclaimed experts do, you read it all the time with items like the GPB, HJ Shooter Award, HJ Gold Performance awards etc etc... By comparison of pictures found on the interweb, and by parroting off what they have read elsewhere. If anyone was really interested in the differences between Gold plating and fire gilding they would have contacted the right people long ago, listened, watched and learned, asked questions... Only then, would they be knowledgeable enough to speak about the facts, and differences between the two, and be able to share their knowledge.
But why do the leg work, and research, after all, we don't care about History or facts, we are content in comparing uploaded images and then Squawking of some intellectual-sounding sentence that is intended to Gob-smack the younger generation... God, He knows so much, there he goes, the last Militaria hero .. watch him as he goes.....

[Bill D.]

Gentlemen:

This thread has gone on for dozens of pages and hundreds of posts.
While the subject of the thread is very important to collectors, we now have two problems, as I see it:

Problem 1:
It will be difficult, if not impossible, for a collector trying to understand this issue to find the "meat" of the thread among over 400 (and counting) posts.

Problem 2:
As you are all aware, this thread is being watched closely to make certain that it does not go astray and range into areas that are unrelated to the subject of the originality, or lack of originality, of this type of dagger and of the specific dagger about which this thread was begun. I believe that the posting of comments that are laced with sarcasm or veiled personal criticisms of others will do absolutely no good.

May I make a suggestion (or perhaps even "request" is a better word)?

Might it be possible for those of you who are well versed and knowledgeable on this subject (and you know who you are ) to create posts in which you summarize your thoughts, perhaps with a series of statements, about this dagger? I believe that, at this stage, such posts would be helpful to present and future readers of this thread.

An example, and I emphasize that this is only an example of what I'm suggesting, and not a reflection of any personal opinion that I hold:

"I believe that the so-called bird's head SA dagger, as a whole, is a fantasy piece that never existed prior to 1945. I hold this opinion because:
1. There are no known period photographs of the dagger under any circumstances.
2. There are no known period written references to the dagger, in a manufacturer's catalog, in a period newspaper article, etc.
3. The observed examples do not demonstrate the expected quality of workmanship for a presentation dagger of this period, specifically in that..."

So that's the type of thing that I, at least, would see as helpful at this point either as to this style of dagger generally, or the specific dagger at issue.

[cogwheel]

Fire gilting must have still been in practice during the TR. For example, the WKC firm listed fire gilting as an option at extra cost in the 1939 catalog. The difference in price was substantial. Double electroplating a sword hilt was RM 5.-, fire gilting the hilt was RM 15.-.

[damasco]

Mr. Cogwheel
What Fred is saying in the post #403 is (how do you know it was fire gilded??) I'm sure that Fred S. knows that they did fire gilt during the 3rd Reich. Eickhorn offered the same option in there catalogs ..Years ago I looked in the old bare plating room at WKC (at that time it was off limits because of all of the mercury etc....)