Untouched Böker SS or something else?

[The Red Baron]

Hey guys, I am at a gun show right now and was offered this "untouched" Böker SS by the well known Houston Coates. At first glance, this dagger appears everything advertised and paid for despite a little to much mirror shine but still 100% of the crossgrain. Looking closer, and with the help of some buds I realized that this "unmessed" with dagger is a monster. At the SOS a Böker SS dagger was sold to Coates with "DISTINCTIVE" nicks in the grip and roundel and sporting a Roman numeral III marked crossguard. This piece also had 3 small nicks to the blades edge. This dagger can be seen here with permission from the owner http://www.deathheads.net/edgedweapon.html and here http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...nchmark&page=2

The dagger I was offered is pictured in this thread. Compare the grip of the dagger I was offered and its characterizing chips above the eagle as well as the pimpling of the M and the lack of nicks in the blade above the M. Seem familiar with the one above only without the nicks? This piece I was offered also bore the exact scabbard with two small dents in the bottom fitting.

My conclusion: Coates has had the blade redone to remove the chips, switched out the crossguards and placed a different vertical hanger on it. I believe the scabbard is the same. I was really dissapointed to return the dagger to him, to say the least. I was told face to face with Houston that this dagger came straight from the Veteran but seems to have come from our good friend Ruhl 13.

Opinions welcome and I have not posted this without consulting a few of you to make sure my imagination was not just running free.

http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx264/wrw5f9mizzou/IMG_0711.jpg

[RUHL13]

Hi Guys, seems like the "Baron" is right, Houston did buy my Boker at the
last SOS, looks like he did switch crossguards, and vertical hanger which i never had off.
"Houston, we have a problem"
From what i hear, the crossguards are now on a Himmler Dagger?
This is not good practice in my opinion, taking apart a perfectly good dagger
for profit????
The 4 nicks in the handle next to eagle were on my Boker with the number 3 benchmark lower crossguard, with a double stamped roman numeral 3 district stamp...now a 1?
I am also curious what others think?
Regards,
Gary

[Mac 66]

The Great Houston Coates should hang his head in shame if this is indeed the case

[Jon Fish]

Can't see anything well because of the way the pics have been posted !
But from what I can make out and following the links you look like you are correct.
It would be sad because Houston has a good reputation,I guess even the best get tempted to make a few extra $$ , BUT there may be a reasonable explanation and we should wait to hear from him, is he a member here or just over on GD.Com ?

[JR.]

Well I surmise that the blade nicks were removed to make it more desirable without, than with the damage. And that perhaps the same was true with the bench marked crossguard that was matched to a Boker SS dagger, where as normally seen with Eickhorn products. The crossguard with the double hit district mark III would not work as it was on a Himmler, because these Honor daggers did not go through the "inspection authorization" that say an ordinary 33 SA or SS did, and would be void of any Gau or Roman numeral.

In defense of Houston, I do know that he had a Himmler Honor dagger at the SOS. I personally inspected it and found it all proper. The lower guard was bench marked as well, although I can't remember what the number was.

[busterz111]

Well lets be honest

Most every collector has swapped something or pimped their item,myself included but he is a dealer and this to enhance his bottom line,which is crappy.That also brings up the question how many dealers have things humped up for profit?....Well LOTS I know Tom Wittman has his stuff pimped up for resale,I even coined the term "wittmanized" because everything I have bought from him (and returned) has been fooled with.Houston on the GDC always had a weird way of Photographing his pics on items for sale,he turned down the levels on the pics so the blades were more deep and the Color was richer.

[RUHL13]

Not here to discredit Houston, but why buff out the nicks?
Those nicks in the blade could of been done during the 3rd Reich period, so
why clean it up?....i didn't!!
Also, why switch the vertical hanger?
Why can't things be just left as found?
My opinion the dagger was a one looker as is.
Switching crossguards?...again...why?
Maybe just me, but i leave things the way i get them.
Again, not here to bash anyone.
Regards,
Gary

[JR.]

We all know that even the vets themselves played and altered our precious Nazi relics. And in the collecting community, bent blades get straightened, portapees & hangers get added, missing pommels get replaced, and yes and even a tired and beat Honor or High leaders dagger will be re-gilt and have new leather put the shell. How each of us chooses to handle or preserve these items, is a personal choice. We see this with all collectibles from antique automobiles to furniture.

[RUHL13]

Then when selling this "Refurbished" item, it also should be stated as so...agree?
Regards,
Gary

[tanker]

There IS NO defense on this! The dagger was bought with the defects and then after purchased, altered to reflect a better condition. That is nothing more than being dishonest and deceitful. If the "mods" were identified at time of resale, then better.
Getting caught in something something like this does nothign to bolster confident for young/ new collectors. And when the person doing the trickery is touted as being one of the "honest ones" leaves alot to be desired.
Houston, you need to step up on this.

It doesn't make any diffence on what the collectable is, is should not be sitched and modified to make it better than what it is. This same kind of behavior tainted the Totenkopfring and we all know who and what was involved in that!

Well I surmise that the blade nicks were removed to make it more desirable without, than with the damage. And that perhaps the same was true with the bench marked crossguard that was matched to a Boker SS dagger, where as normally seen with Eickhorn products. The crossguard with the double hit district mark III would not work as it was on a Himmler, because these Honor daggers did not go through the "inspection authorization" that say an ordinary 33 SA or SS did, and would be void of any Gau or Roman numeral.

In defense of Houston, I do know that he had a Himmler Honor dagger at the SOS. I personally inspected it and found it all proper. The lower guard was bench marked as well, although I can't remember what the number was.

[ETN]

Why am I not shocked by all of this?

Untouched no more and business as usual.

[N.C. Wyeth]

[quote=JR.;4582055]

Well I surmise that the blade nicks were removed to make it more desirable . . .

In defense of Houston . . .

[quote]

Funny!

[JR.]

"From what i hear, the crossguards are now on a Himmler Dagger?"

My comment about the Boker crossguard being used on a Himmler dagger is absolutely a false statement to my knowledge. And I stated that. Now those words by the last 2 posters are now being taken out of context. Houston had that Himmler 2 months ago at the SOS and it has absolutely noting to do with this Boker.

[JR.]

I have no interest in this dagger what so ever. However, long before this topic was posted, I was asked to compare all parts of the dagger posted by Billy, and those of Gary Ruhls. I said that it was the same dagger but obviously the nicks taken out of the blade, the blade polished, lower crossguard replaced and the original vertical removed. I magnified the scabbard, upper crossguard, pommel nut, grip, & blade and found the parts being exactly the same in the different set of photos. I presented my conclusion to the collector that asked me to examine the photos and presented my findings. I've never seen the dagger, handled it, knew who owned it or anything else, until the photos were sent to me to assess and assist those who asked me for help.

[N.C. Wyeth]

I have no interest in this dagger what so ever. However, long before this topic was posted, I was asked to compare all parts of the dagger posted by Billy, and those of Gary Ruhls. I said that it was the same dagger but obviously the nicks taken out of the blade, the blade polished, lower crossguard replaced and the original vertical removed. I magnified the scabbard, upper crossguard, pommel nut, grip, & blade and found the parts being exactly the same in the different set of photos. I presented my conclusion to the collector that asked me to examine the photos and presented my findings. I've never seen the dagger, handled it, knew who owned it or anything else, until the photos were sent to me to assess and assist those who asked me for help.

Sounds like a genuine honest effort by JR to help an uninformed enthusiast to me . . . but how tricky the weave of a web can be for all collectors nowadays. Just as JR stated previously, "We all know that even the vets themselves played and altered our precious Nazi relics" . . . well - we all know now that these things are still being altered - even to this day. This is just another example of another such effort to alter another relic of the past - for whatever reason . . . nothing special beyond that.