Water police sword?

[inimicus]

Just saw a conventional-looking polizei nco sword by krebs.

But: It has a *gold* police eagle.

Looked like it was always there and the sword appears never to have been apart.

This is a shiny looking eagle, not a 'wash' or anodizing or whatever like on some w.s.p. Items, and not coppery at all.

Almost something like a plating, and in a few areas where's it's gone appears like zinc or other common base metal.

And the detail is pretty good, about typical as seen on the alu version on swords in this condition. Size and thickness look correct and no sign anything else has been there. Maybe krebs used a device from a w.s.p. Dagger??

Wittmann's ss book doesn't mention a gold eagle pol. Degen. Anyone else seen this application? Thanks a lot!

[SCHUPO]

Not a regulation Wasserschutzpolizei sword for sure. The WSP regulations called for wearing the Navy sword not the Polizei Offizer Degen.

[inimicus]

thanks schupo -

maybe a factory mistake - again, applying the eagle for the wsp dagg? how hard to remove eagle for proper replacement??? how much $ for a correct one? tom johnson sells them for ... $135!

[inimicus]

just got off fone with wittmann who calls the gold a 'factory varnish' or just an attractive anomoly. (btw he says the wsp wore the standard police sword...)

[Billy G]

David,

Gold polizei grip eagles are always a red flag IMHO. They frequently adorn standard polizei bayonets as well as many KS98s tarted up to look like something they're not. Even Wasserschutzpolizei daggers did not use them as far as I know, they display the standard polizei bayonet grip eagle (either stubby winged or later variety) or the copper polizei sword eagle.

[inimicus]

hmmm bad news billy. but, as for no gold eagles on w.s.p. daggs, lakesidetrader has one right now with one that looks right and good.

also, I think I garbled what tom wittmann said; sorry, we had a poor connection (tks. maybe to my $14.95 radio shack portable)

[Billy G]

David,

Paul Hogle's eagle is fine, that was not the style I was referring to as fake IMHO. I was mentioning the police bayonet grip eagles I'd seen as always being bad. The one on Paul's site is the copper style I mention as being for a sword, same exact shape, so I'm thinking this one has a gilt finish to it.

Is this specific style that is on the sword in question?

[JoeW]

George, I believe the idea of a naval sword for the Water Police was an error passed down from Angolia's faulty translation in his 1970s book on swords and bayonets of the German language Klietmann booklet on the Water Police. Tom Johnson revived it in his Vol. V chapter on the Water Police that essentially paraphrased Angolia but added some more photos. Klietman reproduced the original 1936 dress regulation's for the Wasserschutpolizei and used the term "Offiz.-Säbel". Angolia translated that as Officer's Naval Sword, which Johnson repeated. Perhaps he was influenced by a photo in that monograph that showed at a distance a meeting between officers of the Water Police and the "newly acquired" Austrian Strompolizei. The German officers are wearing some kind of sword or saber.

I discussed the Water Police sword situation in an earlier chapter on police edged weapons that I wrote for Johnson in Vol. lV wherein I provided the proper translation of the 1936 regulations. I noted that from pictorial evidence I did not believe that it could be stated with certainty that the navel saber was carried before the introduction of the SS-Polizei Fűhrerdegen and Unterfűhrerdegen in 1938 to the Schutzpolizei, of which the Water Police was a branch. The term officer's saber is quite generic and perhaps a WWI Kriegsmarine veteran who was had joined the Water Police did carry his naval saber. But it was because it was the officer's saber. I know that transfered officers from the III Reich KM did wear their KM dagger. I have a photo of that.

I have assembled some material on the Water Police dagger but I have never had an opportunity to present it in text. Note in this 1939 water color that Klietmann used that an SS-Police sword is illustrated in some detail. But we all know the problems of individual water color representations after the problems with the Knotel folio.

[SCHUPO]

Thanks Joe.

[inimicus]

thanks much joe for the super info, and for taking the time.

ok gentlemen -

I acquired the said krebs polizei unterfuehrer degen today, and it's super-nice. here are fotos of the grip eagle for study and comment. separately, I'll send pix to the messrs. wittmann, johnson and hogle. again, I'm really grateful for the expert insights!

[JoeW]

Just remember, the grip eagle medallion is simply fixed to the grip by insertion into the inlet cut in the grip and two prongs going through the grip are bent to anchor the eagle. That said, I have a hard time with one-of-a-kinds.

I would expect the eagle to show as much wear as this grip that has lost most of the finish on the front. Does it.

[inimicus]

thanks joe.

re eagle condition: that'll depend on the base metal, right? we've all seen alu ones with almost no detail remaining save for the shallowest recesses.

but unless I'm Metallurgically Incorrect, zinc's a 'hardier' (and harder) metal, more resilient by a long shot than aluminum. as mentioned, this bird by all appearances isn't alu but something like zinc, with a 'gold plated' surface.

so, I'd expect the grip device to be tougher and in better condition than the grip - which often, as in the case of my degen, go light-colored (or paint-chipped?) while the rest of the sword sparkles.

anyway, here's a macro look at the bird. note that it's NOT a cut-out design like on police bayos. hence, can we also rule out a w.s.p. dagger eagle?

finally, someone's suggested I try acetone to see if the 'gold' comes off on a Q tip. I'm a little wary...

thanks again!

[inimicus]

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[JoeW]

It may be a stronger metal than aluminum, but recall what zinc awards look like and the finish that is usually deteriorated. In addition zinc would be molded/cast rather than stamped and the zinc prongs on the reverse would not be bendable. Pull the grip and see what the inside looks like.

But why bother, unless you think the owner had it done privately.