Imperial Triple etched Artillery Short Sword

[Fritziii]

Can someone help me in identifying this sword, it has the hilt like a M1870 bayonet but it's not a bayonet, its triple etched and named to a " I. Kurheff.Feld Art. Regt. No 11." , there is not a makers mark on it, the obverse has an artillery motif and the spine has oak leaves, overall length is 25-26 inches. Thanks

Fritz

[Fritziii]

obverse of blade with arty etch and scabbard.

[Frogprince]

A private purchase version of the Prussian Model 1864 infantry short sword. The government issue version (and consequently the private purchase types also) were adopted by the artillery circa 1888. FP

[Fritziii]

Thanks Frogprince!

[SIGNALMAN]

It is not a dress bayonet ???

[rajko84]

It is not a dress bayonet ???

It is not because it does not goes on the rifle.

[SIGNALMAN]

In WWII there were dress bayonets that did not have the slot cut, and could not go on a rifle.

I had what I considered an 1870 dress bayonet, that looked just like yours, but did not have the slot for the rifle. Now I am not sure.

[rajko84]

In WWII there were dress bayonets that did not have the slot cut, and could not go on a rifle.

I had what I considered an 1870 dress bayonet, that looked just like yours, but did not have the slot for the rifle. Now I am not sure.

Do you have a picture of it? And of the top of my head the only German dress bayonets that did not have the slot cut in WWII were fireman one's. All the other ones did.
The one that he posted was never considered dress bayonet.

[rajko84]

here is few of my german ones

[Richie B]

If we're being technically correct, to be a bayonet, it has to be fixable to a rifle.

If it does not have a working fixing mechanism then it is a sidearm.

Richie

[Richie B]

Rajko

I like the one at the bottom of your photo - Bavarian artillery sidearm isn't it ?

Richie

[rajko84]

If we're being technically correct, to be a bayonet, it has to be fixable to a rifle.

If it does not have a working fixing mechanism then it is a sidearm.

Richie

That is what I was trying to explain, but some people do not want to hear.

[rajko84]

Rajko

I like the one at the bottom of your photo - Bavarian artillery sidearm isn't it ?

Richie

Thank you, Richie

Yes it is Bavarian artillery sidearm. I traded my dad 2 model Luft. for it. He has a huge collection of the those sidearms. Russian,French,Austrian,German,Serbian...

But he is in Europe so he can get them more easier then I can here in US.

That Bavarian is my favorite design. I like the French one with the rooster head too.

[SIGNALMAN]

"That is what I was trying to explain, but some people do not want to hear. "


A dress bayonet such as the Nazi police dress bayonet's, more often than not, do not go on a rifle. They are sidearms, as well as "dress bayonets" You can argue with Johnson if you like.

The top photos are of a DRESS BAYONET as well as a sidearm, but it is not a sword no matter how many sarcastic remarks you throw my way.

Good Collecting

[Frogprince]

"That is what I was trying to explain, but some people do not want to hear. "


A dress bayonet such as the Nazi police dress bayonet's, more often than not, do not go on a rifle. They are sidearms, as well as "dress bayonets" You can argue with Johnson if you like.

The top photos are of a DRESS BAYONET as well as a sidearm, but it is not a sword no matter how many sarcastic remarks you throw my way.

Good Collecting

I have some other IMO more important areas where I might not see exactly eye to eye with him. But making an issue of what to call certain TR era blades that many folks know as dress bayonets is not one of them.

Dealers (and collectors) can call them anything that they please. But that does not mean that they are correct from a technical perspective. To a large part of the English speaking world they are called Police dress bayonets because they look like bayonets, which is fine with me. But period catalogs call the private purchase German Police sidearm a "Polizei-Seitengewehr".

Likewise what are generally known as short swords had their origin in the Infanterie-Säbel which is and was a short sword. Which eventually fell out of favor for the Infantry. But found a new life with the Artillery as a multi purpose weapon for close combat, and a tool for building field fortifications for their guns. Becoming known as an Artillerie-Faschinmessser.

A number of Imperial era "Extra" (off duty - dress) weapons like swords tend to be on the light weight side, and would be relatively useless for combat. But if you have ever picked up and handled one of the larger military issue types of short swords from the 19th century. You would know that they are swords, not bayonets. Not only would they never fit on a rifle because they were never designed for that purpose. Some are quite heavy with very substantial blades. FP