Short Police Dress Bayonet

[old siagon]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I have just acquired 2 new daggers to my Police collection. I am not a dagger expert and I have some questions about these 2 unique bayonets. I will list each one seperately.

Just a couple overview photos of the two Bayonets






The second Bayonet I would like your opinions on is a shorter Police Bayonet. It measures approximately 16.25 inches in the scabbard and the bayonet itself out of the scabbard measures approximately 14.25 inches.



The handle with Eagle:





The opposite side



The back side



The blade is in excellent condition, having Never been sharpened, no dings in the blade either. Here is the Maker's Mark:



The scabbard is also in excellent condition with beautiful dark brown leather with no cracks and firm stitching. The end cap has no dents and the section with the bayonet lug is also spotless.







Why was there a short bayonet? How many different sizes were there during the TR?
Many thanks for your assistance,
Vince Leone

[Billy G]

Vince,

A very nice pair of police bayonets. The subject of these bayonets is involved & very interesting, I'll try to answer as many of your questions as I can considering I haven't had any coffee yet

A majority of the police bayonets we see started life in the Weimar zeit with a 17" blade, a clamshell device on the obverse & a Weimar star grip emblem. In or about 1936 with the centralization of the police agencies into 1 cohesive organization, these bayonets had their blades ground down to 13", on such pieces one can observe the blood grooves which will often run down toward the tip of the blade as it does on your Pack example.

The grips were also shortened which explains the odd grip holes that are frequently but not always seen on these "cut down" bayonets, sometimes filled with wax, sometimes not. The Weimar grip emblems were also replaced with an aluminum 3R adler with oakleaf wreath & swaz. The early grip emblems are like the one on your Pack, referred to as a "stubby winged" type.

The beautiful clamshell with Preßen adler was also removed however in some cases it was merely ground off, leaving a metal "cuff" underneath the crossguard. This is seen on your Alcoso short model. A very nice little variation IMO that's not often seen.

I can't tell you in which order these changes took place but I'm inclined to think they all did not all happen simultaneously because I have found long bladed bayonets without the clamshell & cut down blades with the clamshell. In any event, most bayonets fit the mold of the standard bayonet we see today (cut down 13" blade, 3R grip emblem, no clamshell). It's possible the reason we find private purchase pieces that don't conform to the 1936 order was because the owner simply threw the bayonet in his locker & bought another although this goes against that well known German frugality. Maybe the original owners had attachments to the bayonets as is & kept them away for sentimental reasons. Whatever the reason, many (but not all) of the bayonets that don't conforn to the 1936 orders are private purchased pieces.

Some of these bayonets were privately purchased, that is the officer himself bought the bayonet for his own use rather than having it issued to him by the police department. Issued pieces will usually show issue numbers on the crossguard & top scabbard fitting but some will display inventory numbers on the blade spine (this is distinguished from the Weimar proof marks which sometimes were a starburst). In today's market, matching numbers will bring more money are are more desirable. Slotted hilts are fairly scarce (roughly 1 in 8 are slotted IMO) & also more desirable.

The Alcoso example shows an early Alcoso mark & appears to be a short blade private purchase bayonet in very nice condition. My only critical observation on it would be that based on the maker mark, it was an early piece which would likely have the stubby winged eagle that your Pack has. The adler on the Alcoso is generally seen on later production pieces. It's possible it was replaced during the period, possible it was replaced later too. Can you see if it's affixed with prongs? The Alcoso also shows a very nice hilt specific to Alcoso with the dots around the adler's eyes. I've read that the shorter length bayonets were for officer grade polizei but can't confirm this. The short bladed examples are nice to see in a collection to mix it up a bit.

I'm sure there's more info I've neglected to state that can be added but either way, this is a wonderful pair of bayonets that any police collector would love to have. Thanks for showing them to us.

[old siagon]

Thanks Billy

Vince,

A very nice pair of police bayonets. The subject of these bayonets is involved & very interesting, I'll try to answer as many of your questions as I can considering I haven't had any coffee yet

A majority of the police bayonets we see started life in the Weimar zeit with a 17" blade, a clamshell device on the obverse & a Weimar star grip emblem. In or about 1936 with the centralization of the police agencies into 1 cohesive organization, these bayonets had their blades ground down to 13", on such pieces one can observe the blood grooves which will often run down toward the tip of the blade as it does on your Pack example.

The grips were also shortened which explains the odd grip holes that are frequently but not always seen on these "cut down" bayonets, sometimes filled with wax, sometimes not. The Weimar grip emblems were also replaced with an aluminum 3R adler with oakleaf wreath & swaz. The early grip emblems are like the one on your Pack, referred to as a "stubby winged" type.

The beautiful clamshell with Preßen adler was also removed however in some cases it was merely ground off, leaving a metal "cuff" underneath the crossguard. This is seen on your Alcoso short model. A very nice little variation IMO that's not often seen.

I can't tell you in which order these changes took place but I'm inclined to think they all did not all happen simultaneously because I have found long bladed bayonets without the clamshell & cut down blades with the clamshell. In any event, most bayonets fit the mold of the standard bayonet we see today (cut down 13" blade, 3R grip emblem, no clamshell). It's possible the reason we find private purchase pieces that don't conform to the 1936 order was because the owner simply threw the bayonet in his locker & bought another although this goes against that well known German frugality. Maybe the original owners had attachments to the bayonets as is & kept them away for sentimental reasons. Whatever the reason, many (but not all) of the bayonets that don't conforn to the 1936 orders are private purchased pieces.

Some of these bayonets were privately purchased, that is the officer himself bought the bayonet for his own use rather than having it issued to him by the police department. Issued pieces will usually show issue numbers on the crossguard & top scabbard fitting but some will display inventory numbers on the blade spine (this is distinguished from the Weimar proof marks which sometimes were a starburst). In today's market, matching numbers will bring more money are are more desirable. Slotted hilts are fairly scarce (roughly 1 in 8 are slotted IMO) & also more desirable.

The Alcoso example shows an early Alcoso mark & appears to be a short blade private purchase bayonet in very nice condition. My only critical observation on it would be that based on the maker mark, it was an early piece which would likely have the stubby winged eagle that your Pack has. The adler on the Alcoso is generally seen on later production pieces. It's possible it was replaced during the period, possible it was replaced later too. Can you see if it's affixed with prongs? The Alcoso also shows a very nice hilt specific to Alcoso with the dots around the adler's eyes. I've read that the shorter length bayonets were for officer grade polizei but can't confirm this. The short bladed examples are nice to see in a collection to mix it up a bit.

I'm sure there's more info I've neglected to state that can be added but either way, this is a wonderful pair of bayonets that any police collector would love to have. Thanks for showing them to us.

Hello Billy,

Many thanks Sir! Where to begin? Should the Pack have its slot filled in with a piece of colored material, or was this just personal preference? If it should be filled in what type of material was used and what color should it be?

Do you have any idea what the handle letter/number "I3" could stand for? How about the same on the spine, "M071I". I have never seen numbers like these on Police daggers before. They are certinly not the usual inventory numbers as you mentioned as the scabbard is clean of any markings.

On the Alcoso, I cannot tell how the eagle has been affixed. I can tell you it is very firmly in place. Was there a special frog and portapee for the short Bayonet or did they use the standard ones? Did they come in both brown and black leather or were the brown ones to be dyed black to conform to regulations?

Again, many thanks for your assistance Billy!
Your friend,
Vince

[Billy G]

Hi Vince,

I'm happy to be of any help I can. That said, I don't hold myself out to be an expert & speak only from my experience in admiring & collecting these bayonets myself.

Regarding the slotted hilt example, I do not believe these Polizei models ever had felt slot plugs in the period. We may see them from time to time but I believe these are the result of collectors (or dealers?) adding them in the thinking that they were originally there. I don't believe they were. When referring to a standard KS98 dress bayonet (plain hilted types), I've been told that a green felt plug had a police affiliation in addition to jägertroops.

The numbers/letters on your Pack are some type of issue numbers done by the department who used the bayonet, although they don't conform to the usually seen type with a letter designation "S" for municipal police, "L" for rural police or "P" for police school. There are a few other lesser seen types like "K" for Kriminalpolizei (?) & "G" which I think was for Gemeindenpolizei (?). You shouldn't be concerned with these marks, they seem copletely period & add a little character to an already nice piece. The letter/number crossguard & scabbard fitting stampings are a little more interesting as they tie a piece to a particular region or city & administrative district within that area.

Very often but not always we find original police grip emblems have a slight wiggle when touched. While this is not always the case, it often happens as a result of shrinkage of the materials used as well as just plain old wear. Probably also from collectors playing with them. Grip emblems that are fixed tight MAY have been reattached by the vet or a dealer/collector or just added postwar by means of glue. It's always good to look underneath as well as you can to see if there's any indicia of glue or epoxy. Even if the adler was added or reattached postwar, it doesn't skew an otherwise good piece IMHO but does diminish the overall cherry appeal of an originally affixed grip emblem. Many grip emblems have been added to the bakelite grips of standard KS98 bayonets, both by glueing as well as just jamming them into the bakelite with pins. It's always good to scrutinize grip emblems for originality but as I've said, on an otherwise nice police bayonet, I wouldn't let it deter me from getting it.

My reason for mentioning the Alcoso's eagle was that it appears, to me at least, to be a later type seen on 3R produced bayonets. Could it be original to the piece? Absolutely but it was just an observation.

Many types of frogs for police bayonets can be seen & it's up to the buyer to determine if a particular item is original to the bayonet or not. Most often police bayonet frogs were generally a heavy type leather, often maker marked on the reverse, with rivets. They are larger & stronger than the patent leather type seen on nonpolice dress bayonets. Color, either black or brown, would be designated by color of the scabbard leather which was black for municipal police & brown for rural. I believe both of your bayonets would properly have a black leather frog.

There are a couple of types of knots for police bayonets. I don't have pictures handy but will try to describe them. The NCO knot consisted of a green & silver threaded bulb with black strap (of leather or cloth) that has white/red threads. The officer's grade knot was a silver bullion bulb with black strap (either leather or cloth) with either silver alumimum thread or white/red threads. If you do a search of knots on this forum, you'll find plenty of pictures.

A couple of good books on the subject would be Gary Walker & Ron Weinand's Clamshells & Other German Bayonets as well as George Wheeler's Seitengewehr. Both are good reads with plenty of nice pics.

Hope this helps