Officer SS Dagger vs NCO SS Dagger

[bmcgill930]

Can someone please explain and show the differences in the daggers. I thought all SS Daggers were the same.

Thanks...

[Larry Lipps]

The only thing I'm aware of is that often Chained SS daggers are often referred to as officers daggers. While this isn't necessarily so, I don't know of any other differences.

[bmcgill930]

Confused as well

I am confused as well. Detlev had one listed today as SS-enlisted dagger model 1933. I am trying to figure out what the difference is so that I can check mine.

[jodagger]

SS Officer / SS NCO Daggers

The SS dagger designated M33 was carried by both Officer & enlisted man. With the advent of the new scabbard (Chained) in 1936 the option was that any officer who had been an officer as of 9th November 1935 or any member who belonged to the SS for three or more years as of January 30th 1936. It also included ALL SS members who had joined the SS in 1933.1934 &1935, but only after completion of three (3) years service, if they fulfilled this criteria they could upgrade to this scabbard. Not all did some members opted to remain with the 33 pattern scabbard.
Whilst the 36 pattern dagger was without a makers mark or any RZM mark the collector will sometimes come accross a 33 pattern dagger (maker marked) in a 36 pattern scabbard. The reasons for this are fairly obvious.
Commissioned officers & senior NCOs could also wear a 42cm aluminium portapee.
Hope this is of some help. ( This information is from Tom Wittmann)

[bmcgill930]

The SS dagger designated M33 was carried by both Officer & enlisted man. With the advent of the new scabbard (Chained) in 1936 the option was that any officer who had been an officer as of 9th November 1935 or any member who belonged to the SS for three or more years as of January 30th 1936. It also included ALL SS members who had joined the SS in 1933.1934 &1935, but only after completion of three (3) years service, if they fulfilled this criteria they could upgrade to this scabbard. Not all did some members opted to remain with the 33 pattern scabbard.
Whilst the 36 pattern dagger was without a makers mark or any RZM mark the collector will sometimes come accross a 33 pattern dagger (maker marked) in a 36 pattern scabbard. The reasons for this are fairly obvious.
Commissioned officers & senior NCOs could also wear a 42cm aluminium portapee.
Hope this is of some help. ( This information is from Tom Wittmann)

Thanks...so if I understand correctly...there are definitive differences in the appearance of the dagger itself. Maybe...if people denate it as an officers dagger it brings a higher price.

[jodagger]

SS Officer verses SS NCO Dagger

Thanks...so if I understand correctly...there are definitive differences in the appearance of the dagger itself. Maybe...if people denate it as an officers dagger it brings a higher price.

OK will try to explain. Model 33 daggers were origionally made with a makers mark and the early ones were of excellent manufacture made with solid nickel silver fittings, blued scabbards,etc. As the years went by the manufacturing process changed and later daggers will be found with plated fittings, alluminium grip eagle, painted scabbards, etc.
Now the 1936 pattern dagger is EXACTLY the same quality and used the exact same manufactured parts as the 33 pattern dagger manufactured in the 1936, period in other words if a 36 was made in 1938 it would be of the same quality as a 33 made in 1938. As mentioned the 36 model had no RZM or Maker marks.
But to make things more interesting the 33 pattern was also made without any RZM or Maker marks for a very short period in the mid 30s.
Therefore the differences between an officer and nco dagger are very obvious.
THERE ARE NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Larry Lipps]

From what I understand it is the presence of a portepee that defines whether it was an EM vs Officer or NCO. The dagger itself is identical.

[jodagger]

SS Officer / SS NCO Daggers

From what I understand it is the presence of a portepee that defines whether it was an EM vs Officer or NCO. The dagger itself is identical.

YES I would say thats about right. OFFICER & SENIOR NCO were entitled to wear the portapee with the 36 pattern dagger. Mind you its real easy to attach a portapee and call it an officer dagger. Some daggers were serial Numbered and if the number was an officers the collector could find out information about him. If the number is NOT an Officer then there is little or no hope of finding out any history of the man.
I have in my collection a 33 pattern ground Rohm dagger in a 36 scabbard S/No to an officer. Unfortunatly three other S/No SS daggers I own are not traceable and therefore were not officer owned.

[lakesidetrader]

Suggest you look at the wood finish under the portepee. The aluminum against the wood tended over 70 years to ever so slightly discolour the wood, lightening it slightly. This can give evidence to an original wrapped piece. Looking closely at the portepee can as well. After 70 years the original aluminum cord tends to have a "memory" and want to be wrapped in a certain way. Regardless I don't think the presence of a portepee makes a whole lot of difference on the value of a dagger.
One other point of interest is that the "regulation" wrap of the '36 model was a difficult wrap to stay in place during wear, Many of the guys used a piece of string or wire to keep the wrap secure or, in some cases, opted for a non regulation wrap configuration.

[Skipper Greenwade]

Thanks to everyone who responded to this thread. To summarize:

• The 1933 SS dagger - often referred to as an EM dagger - is the standard, Party-form dagger, closely resembling the SA and NSKK pieces
• The 1936 SS dagger - often referrred to as a "chained" or "Officer" - is distinguished by the center scabbard fitting and chain hanger
• A 1936 SS dagger with a portepee can be assumed to have been worn by an Officer, but the portepee alone would add litte value over and above the value of the knot itself. An exception would be if there was strong proof that the knot was on the piece since the war (difficult to prove and not worth a helluva lot mote, IMHO) or if the dagger was marked with a number that could be traced to an Officer.

Skip

[bmcgill930]

Thanks for all of the info...bottom line a dagger is a dagger unless it is a chained one.

[Larry Lipps]

Just to be clear, you didn't have to be an oficer to have a chained dagger.

[Ron Weinand]

Knot on the M36 Dagger

The only officer personnel allowed to wear the M36 Dagger with a knot were SS Officers of the Waffen SS. Allgemeine SS Officers did NOT wear the knot unless they were in the Waffen SS. This was an early war distinction that was offically phased out with the order that the dagger be replaced by the pistol in 1942.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Robin Lumsden]

SD officers could also wear the knot from 1943.

[DALTON]

Ss Dagger

Does Anybody Know What The Standard Blade Length For A Ss Dagger Is Supposed To Be? I Realize If They Have Been Retipped Or Shortened It Will Vary, But Was There A Certain Length That All Makers Had To Manufacture Them To? All Measurements Would Be Swell, But In Particular From The Lower Hand Guard To The Tip. Thanks