Parts Daggers: Fact or Myth

[Tiger 1]

Some very interesting comments here. I'll kick it along further with how I see it from my corner.

I've been collecting daggers, swords and other militaria since the middle 60's. I guess I've been at it a while. It's a great hobby and I highly recommend it.

The Atwood dagger thing gets blown out of porportion sometimes. Atwood was certainly involved with left over parts and 'parts' daggers. He was an entrepenuer/businessman who liked daggers and saw an opportunity that was lucrative. Nothing new here, it's more likely than not going on today at various levels. The pertinant question should be how many of these 'parts' daggers was he responsible for? The second part of the question would be; What percentage would Atwood's parts daggers make up of ALL the original daggers in collectors or vets hands? I truly believe the actual percentage would be very, very minor. I think that the 'Atwood parts dagger' label is used as a shill to cover much more than the Atwood daggers. I believe Bernie also mentioned this.

There are a lot of original daggers still out there. Unfortunately many of these remaining original examples have been poorly taken care of. Many were removed from their original condition thru neglect or thru improper storage, cleaning and/or polishing. Still considered an original dagger but finish impaired. I think that the emphasis these days about restoration is misplaced. Many of these restorations are an attempt to upgrade condition to the more saleable exc-mint pieces or other seemingly more important examples that are more expensive. Unfortunately this is one ugly aspect of the business end of this hobby. It may be genuine but unfortunately not original condition any more. A restored item can never have the original finish.

I believe we should focus more on preservation and conservation of the unmessed with examples that still exist. Non destructive aging confirms the piece's connection with the history of the times it's from. This is very desirable to us old salt collectors that have learned to appreciate the rare beauty of these pieces. That's an observation that's been firmed up over the years as truly excellent original examples are getting scarcer and much more expensive.

When was the last time you saw a perfectly acceptable dagger being advertised as in Very Good or Fine condition instead of Exc+ thru Mint?

We should aspire to being our own experts regarding what we put into our collections. This is very hard to do on ocassion because we all get 'stardust' in our eyes which for some reason clouds our minds and descision making abilities. It happens to all collectors who collect long enough. There's always a price to pay for knowledge. You pay with the dollars in your pocket or the time it takes to learn all you can about what you collect. Usually it's a combination of both.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, it'll just drive you nuts if you let it.

That's it for now. My brain's getting tired.

Tony

[lakesidetrader]

Well said

[Rich Yankowski]

Amen to that Tony!

Another thought to ponder:If somebody thinks there aren't any 'parts' daggers,why does T.Johnson sell so many parts for daggers?

[lakesidetrader]

Good question...

[Brian S]

Nicely said Tony.

Why does Johnson sell parts? Screws disappear from scabbards and he has original screws. Handles get broken on Army and Luft daggers and MAYBE he has one made to replace your broken handle. Denatzified crossguard replacement with a wartime same producer piece.

Lots of hangers, what wrong there, nothing. Portapees, no problem there even with post war remakes. No ones going to be fooled by my Water Protection Portapee, it's there for ME. Brand new and I'm NOT paying a small fortune for a real one. Just not high on my list.

SA Honour Dagger parts, well now you know what someone will spend the REAL time working on!

AND, those SS ferrule caps, not me

Now if we can bring over a couple hundred like minded dagger collectors we'd have a

[Mark S.]

Face it, an Atwood put together would have so much age on it by now even the best would have a hard time distinguishing it from a factory original.

I took a stab at collecting daggers, and I found the whole scenario to be awash with misinformation, wrong information, and too many people taking potshots at what they heard was right. Also, only a few cheifs for a very large tribe. So much of the information out there is gleaned from so very few sources, that I feel the collectors are at their mercy.

Dont get me wrong, there are advanced collectors out there that have probably forgotton more than I would ever know, with marvelous collections that surely set the standard for what we know today. Any questions I had about a dagger I would refer to these individuals, and be happy with the answer, since they know what they are talking about.

To many times though, apart from what could be called textbook, like a first pattern Eickhorn, there exsists the bandied about terms such as "generic", or "borrowed".

Makers might have used a certain style crossguard or they might have used a standard style. Or, my Puma dagger has a WKC scabbard..thats OK, many makers sold their parts to other makers...and then you got the whole "fill in the blank" generic parts scene which seems to keep everyone happy.

The point I am trying to make, other that dagger collecting is absolutly nothing like badge collecting, is that the problems that are inherent in daggers are the nature of the beast. How can a person possibly even consider the ramifications of a parts dagger, when they are like that by design?

And this is just the concerned efforts. Toss in the vets and their families that took them apart for cleaning and mixmatched the parts in reassembly? What about the guy in the Pawn shop that decides to upgrade a sloppy dagger? We all have heard the rumors of the big dealers custom making minty daggers. True? How would you ever know?

I finally came to the conclusion that if you arent collecting daggers for representative examples, then you are chasing maker marks. That didnt do it for me. That, and I really feel that I was at the mercy of the dealers. If they said it was "straight out of the woodwork" then I guess I just had to believe them. I could take out my Witmann books and start comparing details, and they could be maker specific or they could be generic. That didnt really get me anywhere. I continually find myself at square one, announcing to my buddies my new WKC, "..that has never been in a collection. 100% original." How do I know? Because the guy I bought it from told me so.

I never got the satisfaction of knowing for myself. I did keep a nice Heer and a beautiful 2nd Luft, because deep down inside I really wanted to discover the world of daggers. After all, they are an awesome peice of regalia. You guys that got them figured out, I tip my hat to.

[Larry Lipps]

Guys, so I'm not taken wrong, know up front that daggers are my first love in collecting. My comments only reflect my view of the hobby. For years our table at the SOS was next to Don Swanson who was truly a master when it came to repairing damaged daggers. After several years of looking at his work, I realized that there are people around who can do magic with a handful of old parts. My guess is that the percentage of doctored daggers is probably low. Over the years I've seen repair work that has astounded me and fooled the experts. Thankfully the guys that perform the magic are honest individuals, but that doesn't mean the people getting the work done are. I don't know where to go with this, I try and buy "textbook", and if it makes me happy I don't worry about the rest.

As a side note a friend went to Germany three years ago and visited a couple of old manufacturers who are still in business. He managed to come away with three original quality control tags from someone's drawer. It hasn't dried up yet!

[Tiger 1]

More.....

It's good to see the serious thoughts given to this question.

As a collector I am not at the mercy of any dealer be he 'big' or small. I think of it as them being at the mercy of me and other thinking collectors. After all we don't have to buy from anyone in particular to be able to get a good dagger. But we choose to do so on occasion for various reasons. It's a matter of how we choose to spend our hard earned money.

I'm not against anyone that is a dealer. Far from it as most of us collectors buy and sell along the way to up grade our own collections. Does that make us dealers? Not really. A dealer in my opinion is someone that makes his primary living from selling to the collecting community. In most cases this is well and good. Most of the 'big' guys earned their status by being in the hobby long enough to establish themselves as honest and trustworthy and by really paying their dues throught their efforts. In many cases they were the ones that trail blazed the hobby for many of the collectors that followed later.

Do they deserve the high or higher prices they ask for their goods? That is an answer that only the individual collector can answer for himself. The factors involved are the time and effort involved with finding specific examples and the condition desired or acceptable. Many collectors have limited time, knowledge or connections to pursue the items they need in their collections. The dealers fill this need and in doing so are able to ask the prices that are profitable to them and what the market will bear. This is a sound business practise if you are to be sucessful.

I believe that Brian pegged it correctly when he described the two factions of collecting. The collector and the consumer. There is no right answer here. We all approach collecting with a personal philosophy that satisfies our inner need to collect.

Some of us are in the pursuit of all the knowledge related to the item as well as the item itself. Sometimes we are labeled as purists. We seek out the best original examples possible or we patiently wait for them to surface on the market. We ongoingly study and research our goals and are confident in our ability to see the gems no matter where we find them. If one is a student of dagger collecting ands has done his homework, then his opinion can be as valid as any of the 'big' dealers and sometimes maybe even more so.

Others seem to get caught up in the flow of the current collector rush to acquire as many pieces as possible in an effort to get on board before the prices go up. Some may enjoy the 'race' to acquire as many different examples as possible in the shortest time. Many times these collectors will rely on the dealer's knowledge and good will to keep them out of trouble. This is good for the general health of the hobby but the higher cost is borne by those that didn't do their homework. Like I said previously we all pay for it one way or another.

There is a danger that lies in the current desire for things that are high excellent to mint condition. The temptation to upgrade the appearance of a dagger through parts changing or restoration is there. Most of the exc+++++ to near mint----- daggers are a bit overinflated as to true condition. This is sometimes unwittingly done to done to provide the appearance of a good selection of collectable goods by some dealers. It enhances their standing as 'big' dealers in the collecting community. This is just human nature and there is little that we can do about it other than educate ourselves with what is really true.

As I asked before; Where are all the Very Good to Fine condition daggers that are perfectly collectable?

Even 30 years ago a truly mint dagger was a rarity. Mint is mint without any scale or other value to it. Mint is absolute or it should be thought of that way. It is a benchmark from which all other grades devolve from. You can't go to mint you can only go away from it.

Todays market has many daggers that are overgraded as to the actual condition of the piece. There are some daggers that have been improved or restored to high grade condition. The fallicy of this approach is that in restored condition its worth as much as an original example. Any restored, reconditioned or improved dagger with replaced parts is no longer in original condition. Even in it's pristine restored condition it cannot be worth the same as an original untouched example in the same condition. This is stating the obvious but sometimes this is forgotten or not learned by newer collectors. It's sad that many otherwise good, solid, collectable daggers have been screwed up through good intentions of improving them. The pool of good unmessed with items continues to shrink and will continue to do so until we collectors learn to leave well enough alone in many cases.

Collecting should be a pastime from which we gain enjoyment and satisfaction. It is an ongoing learning process as well as a gathering of objects that interest us. The whole experience is worth much more than the sum of the parts. At least it is to me.

I think that we will do well on this forum as there are many conscientious collectors here that rae interested in finding out the truth about our choosen hobby.

Sorry about being wordy at times but I am passionate about this hobby and wish to share some hard earned lessons and observations.

All the best!

Tony

[Brian S]

Even 30 years ago a truly mint dagger was a rarity. Mint is mint without any scale or other value to it.
Tony

EXACTLY! To which I would personally put my trust in a fellow collector than a dealer. Just too many 'mint' daggers around today. That's a 'red flag' going up, I'm not happy to see you Again, well done Tony.

To the consumers who cannot buy a dagger without Tom's or Gailen's blessing I can only say, yes, by all means buy from them, don't waste my time.

From the posts I believe we could push forward with people who don't need to hear what Gailen says, what Tom says, etc. I have total respect for those people's abilities but I firmly believe the line between dealer and mentor cannot be crossed!

I'm overwhelmed by the opinions expressed here. Now if we can gather together enough of the collectors who believe as we do, we should have an adequate supply of daggers from collectors. The dues here are great and the listings are so far free. And, to make it REALLY great, cheats and frauds are quickly expelled. That leaves pretty much a dagger/badge nirvana for us

[Tim B.]

Brian,

Don't need to (or seem like a) referee here. Perhaps it's just your "passion" for collecting that sometimes comes off as "confrontational" to me. Either way, no offense taken or meant on my part, I'm here to learn and enjoy the hobby of collecting!


I tend to side with the thoughts and comments made by Snigley and Tony the most, but see valid points by several others as well. As I "start" to get into this area of collecting, the main things I will look for is quality and appearance, just as I do in my other collections.

I have learned that getting something "textbook" is not always possible in every sense of the word, but the closer you are to it, the better off you are in the end IMO. Maybe that means I buy from a dealer, maybe not, but my money goes to the best item I can get for that money. Maybe that doesn't work for some, but it works for me.

I am happy to see most feel that the topic of "parts daggers" is more hipe than truth and that most feel daggers cannot be readily made up without obvious signs and a little knowledge of what to look for. That's great, my only hope is, that the information of what to look for is also readily available for us "newbe" dagger collectors. Maybe then you will have the numbers increase?

Tim

[Brian S]

All you need is , , (to visually quote John Lennon)

I am passionate certainly about this hobby. It's very frustrating to see people who claim to know so much be so wrong about so much. Check no further than the Panzer Legion Tank Badge. Check the IMME pilot with the hole between the legs badge to make my point. Daggers are really no different. Variatioins exist. And it's NOT just the Gods who have an honest dagger with a slight variation.

Of course you should get the most for your money, the best for your money, and buy what makes you comfortable. Why on Earth would I object?

I may get very frustrated if you call my DLV dagger a fake because a hand applied Nazi Swastika disc is 3 degrees off from another

I just grow weary of a forum that 7 out of 10 posts are "new fake on eBay", "another fake on dealer xxx site". That's not really helpful.

[Skipper Greenwade]

Lots of interesting thoughts on this thread, which actually hits on two sub-topics. I'll get the easy (IMHO) one first: I tend to agree that the 'parts dagger' thing is probably overblown as a threat to most collectors for reasons previously discussed.

On to the subject of buying from dealers:

My best guess is that the last ten items I've added to my collection have come from dealers. They include:

• A .935 silver Honor Goblet grouping to a destroyer pilot who was a Knight's Cross winner (Kai Winkler)
• A Pilot Observer badge (Detlev Niemann)
• A Water Customs dagger by Horster. (Tom Johnson) I wanted the non-aluminum version by Horster because it would better compliment my Land Customs dagger.
• A Schwerin-marked, 1st Pattern E-Boat badge (Gailen David)
• Schwerin-marked Auxiliary Cruiser and 2nd Pattern E-Boat badges (Bill Shea)
• A Schwerin-marked Blockade Runner badge (Brian Maederer)
• An Army Paratrooper badge (MAX Show dealer whose name escapes me at the moment)

I bought the items in question from these individuals not because I needed a dealer to tell me the pieces were 'good', 'right', etc., but because they had what I was looking for when I was looking for it. I bought the items at what I felt were fair prices, but I truly believe that if the dealers were not making as much profit on each deal as possible they were damned fools. (I would like to point out here that prices are almost exclusively determined by what the market will bear!)

In another thread I used the analogy of buying tickets from a scalper as a comparison. Each year I attend the Indianapolis 500 (not a big race fan...just love a good party!) I historically pay in the neighborhood of $300.00 each for tickets with a face value of $145.00 to a scalper in the Indianapolis area. Over the years he has come to understand exactly what I'm looking for when I want to buy my race tickets. I get what I want - and most likely would not get otherwise - and he makes money to keep his lights and phones working.

For me, it works the same with my militaria collecting. I decide what I want, about what I want to spend and I start looking. I attend the MAX Show, the OVMS Show-of-Shows and most of the larger Houston- and Dallas-area shows each year. Funny thing is, even at the MAX and the S-O-S, I generally wind up getting what I want from the better known dealers. Not always, but certainly much more than half the time. Why? Because they are simply more likely to have that cased Knight's Cross of the War Merit Cross or that cased Glider Pilot's badge with the particular Juncker trademark I insist on it having (two items on my shopping list for the S-O-S) than a fellow collector. I get what I want, which is usually what I've researched and am confident that I am knowledgeable enough about to make an informed purchase.

One of the previous posts mentioned relationships - a very valid point. Over the years I have established relationships with the dealers mentioned here and a goodly number of others to boot. They - like the ticket scalper - understand that I know what I want and what I expect from them. If I happen upon someone at the S-O-S with eiither of these items for less money, would I buy it? Of course! Do I really expect that to happen? No! I buy most of my new 'toys' at shows and, consequently, don't attach as much value to photos and/or descriptions on websites as I would if I were buying without handling the item(s). Another thing about establishing relationships with dealers is that many of them will send their merchandise out on approval if they can't supply good photos or descriptions or answer my questions before we make a deal.

Maybe my tactics are different and are driven by the fact that I am looking for something other than common material and am usually specific about what I want, but they are rooted in over thirty years of collecting experience and work well for me.

Skip

[Lloyd L.]

I know myself, that when I started collecting daggers in 1964, when Atwood's book came out, it was really the first of it's kind. I truly believed everything that was in that book and did for many years. As a result, I bought a Himmler SS that appeared EXACTLY like the one in Atwoood's book. Welll, it was an RZM piece, NO ONE had written YET that only Eickhorn had put that piece out. When I bought the Himmler, it was expensive BUT I felt I had gotten a deal.

Later when the truth came out, I knew I had been "HAD" and not by a dealer either. Then there was the "Navel Assault Forces" dagger in Atwood's book. Got one of those in Santa Monica for a mere $100 and drove all the way back here to San Bernardino looking at my "find" and the page in Atwood's book that was the spitting image. Lo and behold, another one showed up a few years later, at which time I said to hell with it a and sold my collection off!

This all after I had heard from a good friend who personally knew Col Stewart, AKA: "Der Alte Oberst", in La Jolla. Stewart had drawers and drawers of dagger parts to include Honor Dagger crossguards, scabbards,etc. Whatever you wanted he coud MAKE! Yep, I had a few of Stewart's daggers as well!

I myself, having 4-5 SA daggers back in the 60's, made a few NSKK daggers by painting scabbards, replaced missing screws on SA's that were not complete and traded off the ones with a few missing screws after my work.

You all don't realize, those were the days before John Angolia, Johnson and Wittman, to name a few, who have all put out fine books on daggers. It was the same for medals and uniforms.

Today my friends, you and those that come after you, and me, as I've gotten a few daggers again, will have out of necessity and unknowingly to boot, will have "parts" daggers and thats just the way it is!

[SCHUPO]

Gentlemen,

An excellent discussion. I am an old timer too. Shucks, I still have letters of authenticity from Jim Atwood for daggers that I bought from him in 1964. I no longer have the daggers of course as my experience is the same as all old timers in this hobby. Singed fingers from bad buys with good money. One either learns a lesson and becomes more careful or starts collecting stamps.

The bottom line is that all daggers are not equal. Some perfectly original daggers are more well made or are in better condition than others. Some are truly Atwood parts daggers from the 1960s and some have various period parts that were assembled during the period of use (WWII) and some have period parts that were added just last week. You have to please yourself. In order to know the real from the imaginary one needs to have bought the books (and read them) and been to web sites such as this one.

As Skipper said, he bought some very nice things from dealers recently because they had them when he wanted them. He was willing to pay more in order ot please himself. Certainly, he would buy a nice out of the woodwork dagger for less than dealer price from John Q Public if it was original. I will pay more for something I really want than for a variation of something I already have. It really comes down to what one wants to collect. A "textbook" example will cost more than a non-textbook dagger. That is the way it is in the antiques and collectibles world. The other thing that affects price is "condition, condition, condition." So, some folks collect minty examples and this gives incentive to "improve" the condition of items by replacing a Heer crossguard with a broken swastika with another one. Is this then a "parts" dagger or simply one that has been restored? All difficult questions.

I collect to please myself. I think that Skipper does too from the sound of it. It all depends on what you want to collect and how you want to collect it. To be sure, there are lots of "parts daggers" out there. Some original to the time period and some not. Please yourself and know what you are buying is my best advice from an old timer.

George