Parts Daggers: Fact or Myth

[Brian S]

I think one of the most overused phrases in dagger collecting is the term, "parts daggers".

How many of you have several of the most common of daggers, the SA's? Even these dagger parts are not entirely interchangeable. There is so much precise hand finishing that the parts simply do not match and mix. Look at Johnson's and Wittmann's books and see how many manufacturers and suppliers there were of guards and pommels. All require a specific fit, not that some won't interchange comfortably.

Here's my point and I appreciate your thoughts. I keep reading post after post that you better buy from the 'trusted' dealers because if you don't, you'll get stuck with a 'parts dagger'.

Why is it, and this is my question, badge and medal collectors can get comfortable with doing research on an item, NOT pay a premium for a good item, and indeed have a wonderful collection of genuine articles, but it appears to me, dagger collectors cannot?

Bottom line, why can't this forum work the same way for dagger collectors as it does for badge collectors?

[Colorado]

Hi Brian:

I feel like this is a loaded question about linking parts daggers, prices and dealers. Here is my shot. Some daggers are tough to tell without experience. Eickhorn had 3 different eagles on Army daggers. If one knows them well they can discern if something is amiss or put together a believable parts dagger themselves. With a small maker that made it's own blade and nothing else, it is tough to tell if it is a parts dagger.

Early pre-RZM SA's and SS's have certain qualities that make it difficult to make a parts dagger. Some switches are easy to detect, others like scabbard switches are tough.

I know you disagree, but whether starting out or experienced there is nothing wrong with buying from a dealer. There is a lot to learn on your own. It's your money bottom line. I have not really bought daggers from dealers, but I have sold before to dealers, because they were willing to pay more believe it or not. There are daggers listed here on this site that stack up against prices for dealers or even higher. You go where you are comfortable.

If one does not like dealers, their opinions or prices don't buy from them like any other business.

[Brian S]

Thanks for a well said opinion. Not a loaded question. Maybe makes people nervous but OK.

Often heard on GDc the general consensus there was that the larger dealers just naturally get 30% more than collectors for the SAME dagger.

Badges and medals do NOT work that way.

Is is REALLY difficult to distinguish a genuine Government Dagger from a fake?

Is it REALLY difficult to distinguish a genuine DLV Dolch from a fake?

Why the dagger premium?

[Colorado]

Nothing impresses a chick like grabbing hold of your dagger while talking to them at a gasthaus. I said dagger, right?

[Tim B.]

"general consensus there was that the larger dealers just naturally get 30% more than collectors for the SAME dagger.

Badges and medals do NOT work that way."

Brian,

Not to offend and really want to keep the cool here, as I did in the past thread on daggers sources, but badges and medals do work that way too depending on the dealer.

I have seen several items that can be aquired for less than half of what popular dealers charge on their sites, it all comes down to "who" is selling it and where you find the piece.

As far as the parts issue or "made up daggers", I am only going off information and experiences shared from others that I have met online, at gun shows, and other instances where the topic of dagger collecting came up . I could see where two like items could in fact share components quite easily. Just how much individual "fitting" of parts had to be done--that I do not know in every instance, but I also understand that some makers shared parts or used parts from other makers to produce their wares, so why would it be inconceivable to think parts could not be interchangable?
Tim

[Brian S]

Tim,

I'm not entirely sure why you feel the need to referee or infer a fight is brewing???

All sword and dagger parts are NOT interchangeable. Indeed I have three police swords and NONE of the parts are interchangeable. Several SA daggers and NONE of the parts interchange to fit perfectly. From MY experience this is a overblown myth to perpetuate fear in the minds of dagger collectors.

You would have to FIT the parts together by filing and shaving and you'd never get back the patina and rust and 60 year old dirt you find under the crossguards and pommels.

I am just entirely confused why we cannot have a dagger community here on this forum that emulates the badge community. Them ain't fighting words, it's a real serious question that answered, IMHO, would result in a community of collectors buying and selling from each other at what again, IMHO, would be more reasonable prices.

Not sure how that's incendiary, wouldn't we as collectors all benefit?

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

Some folks prefer to do their own study and research while others rely on the dealer's knowledge, garauntees, certificates of authenticity and the such. If you need and rely on this foofarrah then realise that you will also pay for it. Is there a right answer? I believe there is. In the end it is the intestinal fortitude that each serious collector must have to accept his own judgement, based on study and research, about what pieces he puts in his collection.

I'm primarily an edged weapon collector with equal time given to Iron Crosses. I don't see that 'parts daggers' are a problem any more than 'parts' EKs. If you look at each piece and judge it on it's own merits the truth is usually evident in the details. Pretty much the criteria that applies to medals also goes for edged weapons. Daggers configured to known original examples, condition, wear factors, patina combined with some homework to educate yourself with the basics of what you're interested in should keep you out of trouble. Some common sense goes a long way too.

During the war years some dagger manufacturers did source some or even all the parts from outside the factory. Smaller makers did indeed buy parts for daggers they weren't tooled up to produce. Large makers like Eickhorn are also known to have used out sourced or generic fittings when their production didn't keep up with demand. With study and observation certain patterns emerged of who used whose parts and when. It's a bit involed to go into detail here but it was done during the war years. I suppose that any company's product that wasn't made in house but relied on outsourced fittings could be termed a 'parts piece'. Using that criteria we would have to look at one of the EKIs marked 20 or L/50 as a 'parts' EK because of to separate makerts using the same pattern, but we don't.

Use your judgement with daggers as you would in dealing with any other collectable. The fit, finish and integrity of the piece should tell you the whole story.

Tony

[Brian S]

Excellent Tony, you certainly qualify as a collector, not consumer (one not better than the other).

Not sure how long you've been collecting. Remember Jim Atwood? At the time he was considered the God of Dagger Collecting. 'Consumers' greedily gobbled up all he could 'find' for them. Now his 'output' is considered to be the source of the best 'fakes'. Parts, post-war manufactured parts, combos of both, probably a little of both. Or, another overblown myth to scare consumers/collectors?

In my feeble mind a lack of collectors and too many consumers fuel this unhealthy environment. This forum has just been so incredibly beneficial to the sport of collecting medals, cloth and badges. It would be fun to see that level of collecting brought here also to edged weapons by a large group of true "collector" experts.

[lakesidetrader]

I agree that with what has been said above. Making a correctly fitting parts dagger is not an easy thing. All tangs don't fit all crossguards, scabbards don't fit all blades and on and on. More often than not the dagger, "maker" is stuck with a mess of ill fitting parts. The other thing I see is that parts are expensive. I recently talked with an Ebay seller who "parted out" his dagger to obtain more $ for it!! With all the current reference material out there now, identifying a parts dagger is a whole lot easier. It's places like this forum and GDC that have made collecting a whole lot safer for all of us.

[Bernie Brule]

Interesting topic and I agree with Brian. I have collected daggers a long time and have been involved in many heated discussions about daggers being labelled parts because they did not conform to criteria espoused by some advanced collector. I stress the word some as most of the advanced collectors I spoke to privately on the subject disagreed but would stay silent for reasons known only to themselves.

Brian's point about the interchangeability of parts in most daggers being impossible is right on. If you don't believe me, try it on 2 daggers and see how far you get. You will soon end up doing this

Don't get me wrong. Parts daggers certainly exist. If you have an Army dagger in a Navy scabbard, well.....

Jim Atwood was mentioned and he certainly was the source of many. But all too often, if a dagger now does not conform to some advanced collector's criteria, it is automatically labelled "parts" or an "Atwood" dagger far too quickly, IMHO.

Did all German daggers have a perfect fit? No. Was the quality of craftsmanship always high? No. Why? Because they were all put together by hand. And when you have human intervention in any process, it is flawed. Because to be human is to be imperfect. Humans make mistakes. Humans have bad days. And as time passed and materials used on the early pieces became redirected to more important needs, the overall quality and craftsmanship often fell by the wayside.

As a result, you will have imperfectly fitting handles in cross guards, you will have off center eagles in handles, you will have blade shoulders that do not hug the crossguard, you will have off center blade mottos, you will have some daggers that most often are numbered that won't be (e.g. Postschutz), and the list goes on and on.

My advice is to look at the whole dagger, not just the flaw. If the rest is right, then there is a very good chance that the dagger is right. If you're not sure, get 3 or more opinions from knowledgeable people you trust. But remember that it's sometimes impossible to judge authenticity with pictures alone; and even the experts make mistakes... because they're human.

My 2 cents.

[Rich Yankowski]

Who is more likely to sell a 'parts' dagger,a person on Ebay who sells maybe a dozen daggers a year,or a 'big dealer' who sells hundreds of daggers a year?Which one would have the best access to dagger parts?If you only have a dozen daggers of one type,it's a lot harder to swap parts than if you have an inventory of a hundred of one type.I've heard rumors that most of the 'big dealers' have swapped parts on daggers;or have bought lesser quality daggers,had them 'cleaned up',and then sold them as mint.But I,as do many,still buy from the 'big dealers'.I don't have the spare time,or the means,to travel across the country to shop at all the various shows.I don't have the connections to know when an old time collection is up for sale,as most of the 'big dealers' do.So I'm pretty much forced to buy from the 'big dealers' when they have a dagger I want,or to hope that just maybe Joe Blow will sell one on Ebay(and nobody else will bid on it).I have bought some of my best daggers from members of this and other forums(GDC in particular),but as for varity,you just can't beat the 'big dealers',in my opinion.And if a dagger doesn't fit what is written in a book,who wrote the book?

[Brian S]

The responses are great, I was afraid I'd be ridden out of town on a rail! It's great to see you guys here on this forum, I recognize all of you from GDc!

I'm really glad to see such 'collectors' as yourselves agree with me on this incredibly hot topic.

[lakesidetrader]

Agreed Rich, the guys holding 30 Sa's have a better chance of finding at match than the poor sod with a handfull of mismatched parts. If you talk to any of the big dealers 1on 1 they will tell you that indeed much of this happened in the hobby's infancy. For the most part though, the rules of the hobby have changed over the past 20 years. "Swapping" out parts is no longer Kosher.
As far as why people buy from dealers as opposed to other avenues is not just one reason but many. Newbies, to protect themselves from the fakers, and the more experienced guys because of selection. I spent over $750US going to the MAX to sort through a bunch of rocks just to find that gem. Most would agree that $750 could have got me a nice SA. I would have much rather stayed home with a nice diet coke on the rocks and surfed for a couple hours for that gem. But by far I think that to build a truly great collection takes relationships. Many of these dealers have long standing customer relationships. As a result the best pieces never even make it to the site!

[Larry Lipps]

Just my own personal opinion with no facts to present, I believe a lot more of us have "parts" daggers in our collections than we'd like to admit. It begs the question as to whether a dagger assembled form original parts is, well, not original. When you look at the photos of the chests full of original parts Jim Atwood picked up in the early 60's it makes you wonder where they all went. When the various manufacturers realized that Atwood was making a killing in the US they stopped selling him leftover parts. Now why would they do that?

I agree that parts from different manufacturers are not interchangable, but there's a lot of money on the line here. With standards relaxed late in the war, it doesn't take that much work to put a presentable piece together if all the parts came from the same manufacturer. Swords were generally custom fit depending on the height of the purchaser, so I look at them a little different than a dagger. I guess the main question is that if I have a piece assembled from original parts by a reasonably talanted individual, how could even an expert tell the difference?

[Brian S]

If you have a dagger as you said above of all matching parts from the same manufacturer, don't you have a war time dagger? I'll take a Government dagger of that description, please!

Snigley, I think they ran out of leftover parts... Honestly think it was a finite number of items.

"How could an expert tell the difference?" That's another one of my problems with this whole sport! If I'm a big time dealer with stock to sell, I'm seeing "parts daggers" everywhere except in my own inventory. Cynical or realistic, I think realistic.