SS Marker

[Ojoneso]

Hello,

The maker RZM 120/34 SS, RZM 121/34 SS und RZM 188/35 SS

have product Daggers before 1936
the RZM have begin with the control 1936

we can have the Maker a Logo with RZM Marke???

And can post Pics from the Daggers in this Tread?
im search Information for the Maker.

Best Regards

[BOB K. (RKSS)]

It's known that SS & SA daggers were first authorized, & maker's began production in Dec. 1933, all Makers were using their regular logos/trademarks on all authentic production. Since RZM specifications, regulations, & control of Nazi Party items did not begin until 1936 > My opinion is that any RZM marked blade with number ending with "34", or "35" are FAKE Reproductions!

[Skyline Drive]

You are in the minority if you believe that all SS 120/34 and 121/34 daggers are fake. The quality of these daggers equals or exceeds the early maker marked daggers. Each had their own characteristics. One interesting note... the SS 120/34's are always district marked "I". The SS 121/34's have no district mark. They both had anodized/blued scabbards, although some were painted. The only SS dagger that I have owned constructed with a true ebony grip was a 121/34.

In addition, there are other Third Reich items which are marked with a 1934 RZM code. For example vertical hangers marked RZM 1/34 and 48/34.

The Reichszeugmeisterei did not just pop up in 1936. The RZM regulations may not have appeared in printed form until 1936, but it existed as an organization years earlier; most likely just after Hitler took control in 1933.

[Frogprince]

Offhand I don’t remember the details, but what Skyline says is basically correct. The RZM did not just pop up out of nothing. And it took a while to staff and get really organized. Which started with a law in May (?) 1933 protecting party symbols. And by the summer of 1934 was officially in business. FP

[Ojoneso]

Offhand I don’t remember the details, but what Skyline says is basically correct. The RZM did not just pop up out of nothing. And it took a while to staff and get really organized. Which started with a law in May (?) 1933 protecting party symbols. And by the summer of 1934 was officially in business. FP

yes it is ok!!
The RZM have begin the control in the jear 34 of Juni/Juli (summer )
have the RZM Controled in this Time the maker from the SS daggers

The maker 120/34 wath is?
Kober or Böker or or or???

Have Pictures for the maker 120/34 121/34 188/35??
Or Links to the Pics for the maker?

Sebastian

[BOB K. (RKSS)]

Can anyone show original German DOCUMENTATION; that RZM contols were in effect before 1936? If passed in 1933; then why were Nazi Party daggers still marked with Maker Trademark/ Logo markings (without RZM); until 1936? Why weren't ALL Nazi Party items marked with RZM (before 1936)??? Defies logic, & common sense!

[Ojoneso]

Hello Bob,

wath will you say?

The Logo with RZM to the Time 34 is ok?
Or is the Logo to Time 34 with RZM not god?

Best regards Sebastian

[rieny]

Yeaahh Sabastian, its funny in every Forum worldwide the same question ha ha ha

Its not easy to find real information about the RZM and their Organisation. In 1936 all things for the NSDAP and their organisations must have been aproofed by the RZM and had to be stamped by it. Before there are many things that were bought private by the people. I think the early RZM daggers are ordered by the RZM for their purchase but thats just my own thoughts...

If you want i cann tell in German my friend. Call me at Sunday Sebastian you got the number.

Greetings Rieny

[Frogprince]

A little too much to get into right now. But are all those pre 1936 RZM marked seemingly well used canteens and field gear items fakes also? And does the fact that the SS daggers were purchased internally have a bearing on the matter? FP

[BOB K. (RKSS)]

A little too much to get into right now. But are all those pre 1936 RZM marked seemingly well used canteens and field gear items fakes also? And does the fact that the SS daggers were purchased internally have a bearing on the matter? FP

"Canteens?!?, "Field Gear"?!? (please show examples of which you speak). RZM control was for for NSDAP Nazi Party organizations ONLY, & Not for the regular military. Authorized SS Men could only purchase SS Daggers through their SS Headquarters; which ordered them from the Solingen makers. If You've ever examined any of those "34" & "35" marked blades, You'd see clearly, the INFERIOR QUALITY of those blades; nothing like that of the known original SS & SA TRADEMARKED blades made in 1934 & 1935!

[Frogprince]

Bob, Ordinarily I might agree with you on some of this. But as I’m certain you already know very well, the German Army was NOT fully cooperating with the NSDAP in the early years. They did not hand over batches of brand new 98K rifles from their stores as the result of a simple request from the NSDAP or the SS. Or anything else. And what I’m reasonably certain is not faked documentation indicates that you are wrong with at least some aspects of your statements. (Also please note that for the moment I’m trying to focus on the larger picture, and intentionally staying away from discussing the daggers).

I know in general terms what this statement is saying. But can anyone (especially our native German speakers) give me a good translation in everyday or colloquial (not literal) English of: “ Plättestempel der Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP”. Especially the “Plättestempel” part in a pre 1936 context?

PS: Another question. Was the early mission of the RZM quality control, or was it to generate revenue for the NSDAP? FP

[Skyline Drive]

:If You've ever examined any of those "34" & "35" marked blades, You'd see clearly, the INFERIOR QUALITY of those blades; nothing like that of the known original SS & SA TRADEMARKED blades made in 1934 & 1935!

Apparently it's you who have never examined a 120/34 or 121/34. They are of the HIGHEST quality. All solid nickel fittings. Tight fits and tolerances. They are at least equal to or better than the early maker marked daggers.

[Skyline Drive]

.

[BOB K. (RKSS)]

Bob, Ordinarily I might agree with you on some of this. But as I’m certain you already know very well, the German Army was NOT fully cooperating with the NSDAP in the early years. They did not hand over batches of brand new 98K rifles from their stores as the result of a simple request from the NSDAP or the SS. Or anything else. And what I’m reasonably certain is not faked documentation indicates that you are wrong with at least some aspects of your statements. (Also please note that for the moment I’m trying to focus on the larger picture, and intentionally staying away from discussing the daggers).

I know in general terms what this statement is saying. But can anyone (especially our native German speakers) give me a good translation in everyday or colloquial (not literal) English of: “ Plättestempel der Reichszeugmeisterei der NSDAP”. Especially the “Plättestempel” part in a pre 1936 context?

PS: Another question. Was the early mission of the RZM quality control, or was it to generate revenue for the NSDAP? FP

The RZM was to specify design, dimentions, authorization of manufacturers for Nazi Party items (especially any items bearing a Swastika); so they could Control unauthorized use of the Swastika. NSDAP did NOT SELL these items. As for K-98, & other weapons: there were strict Laws (before 1934) that did not allow civilians (SS, SA, & all other groups) possession & carrying weapons of any type. Hitler, & Nazi Party did not have enough power (when first elected in 1933), & it wasn't untill Dec. 1933 that they were able to pass a law to allow SA & SS to to wear daggers. Don't think you'll find them with K-98's (during that period): there was a single shot .22 cal training rifle called Mauser DSM-34 (looked like a K-98), & these are what was allowed to be purchased & used by NSDAP organizations in 1934 (most have SA, SS, or HJ cartouches stamped into right side of stock, & NO RZM > anywhere!). Hitler & Nazi Party did not come into FULL CONTROL until 1936, & that's when they put RZM regulations into Law.

[BOB K. (RKSS)]

.

Not talking about Fittings > talking about BLADE. Perhaps you have an explaination as to Why that blade's RZM symbol does not conform to the regulation RZM symbol; by having an OPEN bottom to the "M", & why there is No SS Group mark Roman Numeral? It is well known that a U.S. Army Officer named ATTWOOD was stationed in Germany in the late 1950's & early 1960's (he became interested in Third Reich edged weapons), & went around to all the original manufacturers > Buying up all the Original Nazi Parts, & Daggers (they had left in storage). Believe he did get in some trouble with German Government, & U.S. Army for having some of these Makers: REPRODUCE Nazi Insignia (swastika parts), various Nazi motto Templates (including: SS, SA, & Himmler & Rohm inscriptions), & had new BLADES made with these etchings (all forbidden under German Law). He needed these to complete assembly of the various daggers; that he then sold in England, & U.S.A. [mixed parts (some original, some reproduced), post-War assembled, & some with all Reproduction parts]. He continued to have made, put together, & sell Daggers, & Parts for many years well into the 1970's! Attwood became very knowledgeable about what was correct; so he would Alter trademaks slightly (mostly of companies who were out-of-business), or use RZM codes; that he knew did not originally exist! Don't be DUPED by sellers of items that are Not provable 100% Period Correct! "fools and their money: are soon parted"