98 Bayonet, matching numbers, mismatched makers and years?

[Johnny R]

I posted a thread awhile back on this but did not have images. Here is the bayonet, I was able to pick it up today. I have not seen this before but collect Uniforms.

[Johnny R]

Serial numbers, I thought maybe Czech of Finnish numbers from after the War but they look like WWII German Factory numbers to me. The pair came out of a farm estate sale and I suspect was a bring back. Thanks.

[Johnny R]

So one is E. & F. Hoerster, Solingen (asw) and the other is Friedrich A. Herder und Sohn (clc) ? The Waffenamt is WaA088 on the bayonet, I cannot read the scabbard.

[juoneen]

It appears as though someone restamped over a 0 and made it a 6. The makers should always be the same maker , and serial numbers should match as to stamp marks if matching originally. I would suggest to look on the german bayonette site, and check with them there. I believe its coincidental that the numbers were close enough to have reworked as its only one diget off. Check the waffen ampts on the bayo, and on the side of the tip of the scabbard if they are readable to see how they compare. As you said two different makers. someone must have done the stamp over before you ever bought it. Thats my opinion, but still a nice bayonette. Anyone agree, or disagree?

[Johnny R]

I do not think anyone has messed with the bayonet postwar. It came from one of my pickers who picked it up at an estate sale in a small town for 30 US. This is not from a dealer, given where it came from I very much doubt this was done post War to match them or enhance value. I will post pictures when the site is functioning normally

[Johnny R]

Here is a close up,

[Johnny R]

Another showing the set. I personally think this was period done.

[Frogprince]

There are legitimate factory overstamps, but they are in the extreme minority. And recycled period armory overhauled (and renumbered) bayonets from different makers as well. But the dates of the two components would be helpful because there is a nominal cutoff date for period reworks. Which is critical IMO for this discussion, because clc = R. Herder not F. Herder (ffc). So the bayonet parts are later manufacture using codes instead of makers names ??

PS: Are you sure that is a WaA088 and not something else?

FP

[Johnny R]

I am sorry, I just realized i did not provide an image of the maker marks and rather posted two showing the numbers, The Wa # on the bayonet itself is is "88" (F. Herder & Sohn) it is stamped twice and is clear, the one one the scabard is no longer legible. : Here are the maker marks.

[AndyB]

Hello , thanks for adding the pictures, is certainly a interesting piece, problem are little more, the c letter is not typical for 41asw, so when it must be done not by Hoerster but by other producer, the scabbard have probably not the c letter but more possible bad stamped g letter, and WaA519 should be on ball finial. Could You exactly look what is the letter on scabbar? The bayonet should be stamped WaA883.best regards,Andy

[Johnny R]

The bayonet is stamped 88, I have looked at it under a microscope and there is no evidence of a third number.

[Johnny R]

The marking on the Final.

[Johnny R]

IMO the letters after the number are both "C", at 4x magnifacation there is no evidence of a soft stamp or a bar for a "G" etc.

[Frogprince]

I think that the bayonet serial number marking is post manufacture. Looking at very early (and late) 1941 dated bayonets by Hörster - the area where the serial number is placed is both smooth and flat. With the blade’s serial number area obviously being finish ground after the number was stamped like the maker’s mark side, not before.

With the bayonet in question having raised areas (metal displaced by the stamping) around the numbers, but not the obverse side. And with what could be a slightly rougher ground area underneath it seems clear that it has been redone. (Also the bluing color should be a little darker blue - although with a web image that opinion of the bluing could very easily change with a direct examination.

The normal pommel stamp for Hörsters of that era is and was WaA883. Although with one of the pommel stamps on one of the bayonets I looked at the "3"' of the left Waffenamt was obliterated by over stamping of the second Waffenamt. And sometimes reworks have stamps that were obliterated or partially erased through the reworking process. Although in the case of this bayonet, metal corrosion seems to be the culprit for any possible erasure. FP

[Johnny R]

So a farmer in a town of 170 people just by chance found a loose scabbard that was one digit away with a "c" (by luck the digit was a zero) from a loose bayonet with a matching number that happened to be handy and restamped the zero to a six, held onto it for 40 or 50 years and then sold it at a sale last month for 30 dollars?

Is it more possible that surplus materials were reused in the same town by two different manufactures making the same product? We do not know all the variations and what was done. Something unlike others does not always mean it is postwar. I believe whatever is going on this was done during the War. THe Wa. is 88, there was never a 3 there, it is very clear in both stamps. To say "I know it is not correct" when we do not know everything regarding what they were doing is a grave mistake.