Taking daggers appart

[ROBB]

Whats with the taking daggers appart thing ? there is an SS dagger on the estand fresh out of the woodwork untouched since GI Joe bought it home and now it is displayed like a dissected Frog . To me its like all the interestingness has been removed its no longer a piece of dark (nasty) history but a couple of lumps of wood and metal .Or am I mad .Rob

[SwordFish]

Robb,
I'm with ya'. Honestly, i've destroyed a dagger many years back by taking it apart. Ended up damaging the tapped threads on a 2nd Luft pommel. I see people become exploratory when they receive a new dagger that they are unsure of. Often, parania about authenticity leads to this dissecting of daggers. Once apart, there is going to be tell-tale signs that the dagger was pulled apart in recent times. Barring the need for repair or some type of immediacy in regards to cleaning, people need to resist the urge to dimantle them. Still, there's going to be a cross section of "collectors" who tear the dagger apart to part them out on various auction sites as the reality is, often one can make more on a crappy conditioned dagger than can be made if the crappy conditioned dagger was sold intact. Luckily, the items which I specialise in are very difficult to take apart and if someone does, good luck trying to sell it. Army sabers present an entirely different and difficult set of issues when taken down. This tends to keep us out of danger when buying swords. I know how to dismantle an Army saber and return it to it's intact state, but very few of us know how to do it properly. Even then, when and if I go to sell that particular piece, I explain to the prospective buyer what and why the piece was dismantled. Bottom line, people should just leave these things alone.

These SS/SA style daggers almost always show signs of recent dismantleing, primarily on the upper fitting and pommel nut.

[zander]

yes i agree robb, it looks a bit sad in that condition,and does not appear to represent anything in particular, as you said a pile of wood/metal, not my cup of tea

[Tiger 1]

Apparently it's the 'cool' thing to do. Seeing other folks take things apart needlessly requires that they do it also. A monkey see, monkey do thing.

Then again all the daggers that show signs of having been taken apart just make the 'virgin' ones that much more valuable to knowledgable collectors.

Tony

[ROBB]

Glad I am not alone .Its like getting a uniform stripping the insignia for a good look then putting it back on or taking the liner out of a helmet giving it a wash in soapy water to clean the dust and dirt and then putting it back .I want an SS dagger but not one thats had the collector fiddle dee doo . Sellers remember half your potential customer base dont want things clean and shiny .Rob

[Billy G]

I can't argue with all your collective points except to say that many moons ago I won a chained SS on Eban. I paid about $1825 so that shold give you an idea how long ago that was. Anyway, I was new to the game & did dismantle it. In hindsight I'm happy I did, the tang was way rusty. I didn't shine the rest of it up like some do, but I did remove that crummy rust in the knowledge I probably saved the dagger. I don't think a snapped tang would be anyone's cup of tea. I mysef like to know if the crossguards are matched & sometimes see what the innards lof a piece look like. I'm more a bayonet guy now anyway so there's no danger in me taking those apart.

[james m]

Taking daggers apart is no big deal as far as I'm concerned as long as someone knows how to do so properly. If disassembly and re-assembly are done properly there is no evidence that it occurred. I don't routinely disassemble daggers but at times it has been necessary in order to determine for example if the tang was marked. Another point is One of the glaring problems with repro blades is a small hole tight thru the tang. You of course wouldn't know it was there without disassembly. My position is to disassemble only if there is a good reason for doing so and DON'T ATTEMPT IT AT ALL unless you know how to do so properly.
Jim

[SwordFish]

Jim,
Valid points. Keep in mind however, I don't believe that most collectors are experienced or familiar enough with dagger construction to safely take one down. Clearly, as daggers are not my fortee and I am by no means an advanced dagger collection hence I won't break 'em down unless absolutely neccessary. Even then, I still have sever reservations and the process is done with the utmost care. Sabers are my collection passion however, and that being said I won't attempt to dissassemble them unless there is a quantifiable reason to do so. Taking the weapon down for exploratory purposes at this time (being 70 years later) is a bad idea. There's alot of room for mistake. Bottom line, I wouldn't reccommend it. But owners can choose what ever they like, but when it comes time to sell, they need to understand the potential implications of thier actions. For me it's not so much an issue of disturbing 70 year old dust and damaging the pieces history, rather the potential of damaging the artifact.

As far as cleaning and preservation goes, every piece I own, including badges, dagger, sabers, leather, you name it, I clean as needed and subsequently preserve. Often times it involves no more than a light dusting, maybe a hit of VERY LIGHT hommade sudsy amonia and a super soft toothbrush, then a nice coat of museum grade wax for preservation. This all can be done without compromising patina and the "antique" look to the piece.

[ShannonNolan]

I'm the guy with the disassembled dagger, and in my defense, it's the first thing I do when I get a knife. Firstly, I've been restoring antiques all my adult life, so I know how to handle items without scarring them, breaking them, etc. As my friend before me said, making sure that the rust (if it exists) on the tang is as important as stopping active rust on the blade. Also, it's another way to check for originality. Take a look at the threads, check out the billet clamp seam, see if the polish goes onto the tang-- all those are more ways to determine originality. Checking underneath is also a good way to see if you've gotten a parts dagger-- is there patina underneath the pommel cap, has the leather buffer pad been replaced, has someone replated the crossguards-- how the hell would you know that if you don't look? Also, there are sometimes maker's marks under these parts to help you identify when and where the piece was made. Hell, every good reference book I've ever seen shows disassemble daggers-- I thought that was how we learned.

[SwordFish]

I encourage learning through the work of others....like understanding the nomenclature and manufacturing process of assembly through items like reference books. I'm not disputing your ability to restore antiques or gingerly handle a 70 year old edged weapon. My posture, and I advocate this to protect the owner, is not to dissamble a dagger, a saber, for exploratory purposes. If there is an indicator that the piece may have issues of hidden degredation or oxidation, typically there will be other tell tale signs, indicating such an issue. In this case, if the collector is not qualified or comfortable, they should seek the advice and/or the service of a collector who is qualified to restore the artifact. Again, the owner can choose what he or she wants to do, and I suspect this this, along with issues of cleaning, will be a hotly displuted topic for a long time to come. If a collector buys a project piece, he/she buys a project piece and we can assume, the particular piece will be dissassembled. We also assume, that the collector understands the costs and work associated with restoration of a project piece and has attained a certain level of restoration competency, as it pertains to German edged weapons.

I do however submit this to you. If you poll 500 collectors, the vast majority, including the qualified seasoned collectors, will not reccommend dissassembly just for the heck of it. A learning experience may end up costing someone a pretty penny. If it were 50 years ago, I submit to you that the collector would have more latitude with making mistakes during dissassembly, simply because the materials had not degrded, shrunk, oxidized, etc., etc.

I've had many people contact me to repair Lionhead and Dovehead sabers, because they became too confident with thier ability to take down, and subsequently reassemble thier piece.

I'm not intending to sound provincial, merely trying to offer an explanation to the posture. Again, my concern is not disturbing the "historic dust", but distrubing the integrity of the artifact.

Again, bottom line. I don't advocate takin' 'em down unless there is a clearly quantifiable reason for doing so, other than "kicks and grins".

T

[ShannonNolan]

Understood, my friend. I guess I just feel like one of the "qualified" guys, being as I've done all manner of antiques for so long, and that's why it sticks in my craw to be bitched at. I would agree with you that you can't just attack a dagger with a hammer and screwdriver, and you absolutely must take every care and precaution. I never force something that seems stuck, I never cinch anything back. I take into consideration the materials I'm working with. I know that things cinched down tight in the winter might crack in the summer. But I also know what happens to materials when left too long in a humid attic, or when blades get put back in scabbards after being handled. I once saw a Samuria sword whipped out for the first time in 50 years, only to see the blade eaten almost to nothing from the blood of the Japanese officer that the Marine refused to wipe from the blade. Admittedly, it was pretty cool, but the metal was eaten through and through. My first and foremost goal is preservation-- stopping any ravages of time that are mounting up on the piece. That's the only way it'll be here in another 100 years. So if you're a clutz, by all means, don't break them down, but for God's sake don't let them rust away while in your care!

[james m]

SwordFish:
You and I are in basic agreement here. My only reason for posting the above is that there are LEGITMATE reasons at times to disassemble daggers. However;
If you don't know how to do this proprely DON'T DO IT!
Jim