Gents, does the argument that neither of them apparently display any III Reich symbology lend any creedence to the possibility that it's more unlikely that these are reproduction blades? It would stand to reason that the majority of phony etched blades (at least from my experience) are of the III Reich designs as opposed to earlier Weimar types, as they tend to be inherently more valuable? Just food for thought. Additionally, from the photos, it didn't seem that either had grip hardware that seemed buggered, indicative of the blades having been "swapped". Besides, aren't the blades integral w/ the tang and pommel on bayonets? (in other words, wouldn't the entire bayonet (excpet perhaps the grip plates) have to be a repop?? I don't believe it's possible to "swap" blades on bayonets in this fashion.
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First, it is indeed possible to swap blades in a bayonet hilt. Believe me, it is being done today as I have seen several where this has happened. The big give away is the rivits used are NOT the same as originals and grip plates usually have a telltale sign of being jacked with in the end.
Next, I see no problem with either of these bayonets. The Holler is a standard, instock pattern and the Pack is NOT a standard instock pattern as it has a unit designation.
I don't notice the bad engraving seen in repros and this Pack pattern is not one that would lend itsself to being a desirable pattern to copy.
JMO,
Ron WeinandComment
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Interesting Ron. How do they swap out the blades?I was of the impression that these hilts are a white (pot) metal, hence cutting and re-welding most likely wouldn't be possible. I have, though, come to think of it, experienced dress bayonets where the blade had a bit of a pronounced "wiggle". Are they somehow riveted internally? As I've never dissected a dress bayonet, I'm quite curious. I have to assume though, that assembly did vary from manufacturer to manufacturer?Comment
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Dress Bayo Blades
There is a rectulangular tab on the back end of the blade that passes through the slot in the plated crossguard on the handle. This tab is offset slightly and there is a bar that runs from the top of the grip handle to the bottom-the grip has a skeleton section in the center. The blade tab is then rivited to the bar on the handle. In front of the rivit section and in the blade tab there is a hole which is what the front grip rivit passes through, thus giving the blade TWO spots of retention in the hilt. There can be some play in the grip rivit and the riviting to the hilt with the blade tab can loosen over the years and this is where you get the play or wiggle in the blade.
Also, IF you know how to drill out the rivits, and can do it without damage to the grip plates or has extra plates for replacement, blades can be exchanged. On engraved bayonets, or Pack Bayonets where the grip rivits are grip screws, it can become cost effective to replace exteriors where the engraved blade is expensive.
JMO,
Ron WeinandComment
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Ron,
I must respectfully disagree with you on the Holler etch despite the fact it's a Holler etch on a Holler marked blade. This exact etch is pictured in Wayne's book, page 177. Look at the details of Wayne's piece as compared to the one Drew shows, specifically the details to the machine gun team's faces, the machine gun itself, the grass on the hill & the wagon wheel to name a few. Even with some wear from the runners, I have to say I think Drew's piece exhibits a lot less detail than the period etch in the book.
With respect to the Pack, I'll concede I wasn't sure although I based my thoughts on the lower border which seems to have varying thicknesses & the fact a blade could have been swapped out easily because of the spanner nuts.Comment
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The attached photo is out of my Guide and Reference book on dress bayonets I wrote a while back. Hope this helps.
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Wayne's Book
Even though I set Wayne up with my printer and laid the ground work for him to have his work printed, there are several things in Wayne's book that he and I have had disagreements over.
I am NOT sold that Holler engraved pieces are bad, especially the one shown here. Holler never was a detail expert on their engraving like Pack and some others. This bayonet pictured does not exhibit some of the problems that the fakes have, so I'll stick with my impressions. I could be wrong, but not everything said is bad.
TK, thanks for posting the details about the blade attachments. It clearly illustrates the manner of attachment.
Ron WeinandComment
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Guys:
Thanks much for the responses on this thread. They have been very informative and, equally important, civil! I picked up these two bayonettes along the years of my collecting uniforms; they just kind of happened, I suppose.
Of the two, the Holler is the one I felt the most confident about due to where I acquired it (a vet, but we all know that's not bulletproof). I was unsure about the Pack one but did have a person I consider to be knowledgable look at it they gave it a clean bill of health, as well.
Again, thanks much. I appreciate it!
DrewComment
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Drew, your comment concerning the point of acquisition on the Holler piece makes me more confident in my stand on these Holler engraved bayonets. I have always felt that, based on the overall appearance of SOME of these so called repro engraved bayonets, makes one question the tag that some collectors have put on them. The hilt, rivits, grips and other features coupled with the overall look and source must be evaluated before we condemn them to the repro heap.
JMO,
Ron WeinandComment
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GREAT stuff! Especially the break-down showing the dissected hilt sections. I'm always loathe to disassemble anything for fear of doing damage, or quite frankly, hate to distrub what's been in place for six plus decades, so this was VERY informative. I hope both of your bayonets are nice original examples. This was a great thread!Comment
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very helpful indeed
You can pick up a wealth of info on this site. I look at it every day and learn something new every day. Whether I can remember it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks to all for the time and knowledge you share.Comment
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