HJ Solid Red Diamonds

[evilmike]

Up until today i would have said that solid red diamonds were post war, as per the general thought. Now recently ive seen online and in the hand quite a few of these, many showing no sign of tampering or damaged rivets and grips. Of various makers, perhaps theres some truth and they are late examples due to factory shortages etc

I believe the best way to solve this is too inspect the reverse of these diamonds as iam under hopefully the impression that they should be similar with hj pins with a rzm and makers marks and so on. Maybe that will then give us more certain knowledge on this topic

(So if youve got a red diamond start ripping them out and looking at the back )

heres so photos of ones ive seen before, please post your examples and thoughts and lets make our own conclusions

heres a 1941 m7/29 a scarce maker, but is 1941 considered that late?

[evilmike]

E. & F. Hörster, Solingen

another late produced knife with the red diamond, again rivets look fine

[evilmike]

This Diamond belongs to a m7/13 (pics nabbed from Mark Vis)

[evilmike]

This Diamond belongs to a m7/7 (photos thanks too Bobcam1)

[RussellM]

Good idea for a separate topic Mike.

I'll add my thoughts below, with a few edits, from the knife thread where this started.

Also, I think 1941 could be considered late, as I believe production stopped in 1942, and started 'officially' in 1933.

I had initially never been a fan of the solid red diamonds, because they always seemed to appear in fake knives. Lately I’ve changed my view as some of the one’s I’ve seen on sites looked authentic and also were fixed loosely, without any sign of damage to rivets or the grip plates. Question is though, could they have been done postwar? A lot of fakes have aged, making them look authentic, even those made from the 60’s and 70's etc. Some of the solid red diamonds are easy to spot, with their silver coloring and can be dismissed fairly quickly. Many of these diamonds display some characteristics that make me tend to believe there are some original items. The coloring looks good, the gold flecked background to the swastika, the pimpling in the enamel, and aging in keeping with the overall condition of the knives. If the diamonds are fixed loosely then that would be a good sign. Rivets and grips have been undamaged etc. The solid diamonds I’ve seen tend to appear only in late RZM marked knives.
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I can’t see why somebody would want to go to all the trouble of making a fake diamond, so clearly different to known original diamonds – it doesn’t make sense to me. If you’re going to make a good fake, make it look like a known original. So are the current fake solid diamonds copies of another late period original diamond? I think it quite possible.
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I’ve recently been looking for more info on solid red diamonds, and was fortunate enough to find that DD Harris has a couple of loose ones. He kindly sent me some pics, and has given me the go ahead to show them here. They have the pin attachment as seen on the scale pattern diamonds, and are RZM marked. Seeing these encourages me more into believing some solid red diamonds are original pieces. Many don’t like items that deviate from the ‘norm’, and these fall outside the ‘norm’ category. However, I think it pays to keep an open mind as not everything was done in a regulated fashion during the period.

I also agree with Paul Hogles assessment on solid diamonds as being a 'red flag', which should encourage closer scrutiny to the whole knife.
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Thanks again to DD at http://www.ddsdaggers.com/ for the pics.

Regards
Russell

[RussellM]

Solid diamonds obverse.

[RussellM]

Solid diamonds reverse.

[evilmike]

I have a very similar outlook to you Russ, you start off reading these are considered post war, then you keep bumping into them, not very often but enough to start thinking hang on these actually look very good.

i like your point about fakes! Whether or not they are deliberately set out to decieve they do take the form of the fish scale pattern in the cases ive seen.

i'm pleased to see the reverse of these diamonds in your pics i dont think people who've paid good money for a knife want to rip what could be a perfectly good diamond out to check the maker marks! Dam tempting though!!

[RussellM]

Just playing devils advocate to my own opinion for a minute, there are some questions that need to be asked. Millions of these knives were made during the period, and probably more diamonds made than completed knives.

Why would a manufacturer change the design from scaled background to a flat background? I would think the cost of one versus the other would be minimal, plus, wouldn't new dies have to be made - that would increase the cost?

Perhaps there was an order issued to change the design, but existing stocks of scaled diamonds were used up first? I can't see a reason for changing the diamond from an official point of view pattern, so I don't think this is likely.

Are the makers of the solid diamond different to those who make the scaled diamond? Maybe a new manufacturer was appointed later in the period?

It would be interesting to see some side-on x-rays of these knives, particularly any that have a solid fixed diamond, to see what type of attachment they have, and to see if it differs from the ones shown above.

Just a few more thoughts for this interesting topic. Look forward to reading more.

Regards
Russell

[Santi]

This is an excellent idea, Mike. I am feeling the same as you are, this is a big shock (at least for me) and we need more info about it.

Russell, you are spot on there! I see what you mean and I totally agree.

Lets see knife number 1, M7/29... I dont think the "M" style is something to worry about, here you can find a M7/29 and although they are from different periods, the M is the same:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=209913

Knife number two...it looks good from here, although those arent the best photos, rivets seem to be correct.

Knife number three (already discussed in the other thread)

Knife number four, Bob's knife. Well i cant give a certain opinion on that one, but you can see that the rivets arent set perfectly and could have been "touched", thats what worries me. Wheter it came like that from factory or it was messed up by somebody, i think thats impossible to know.

I am still not quite convinced with these diamonds, Russell is right, i dont understand why the "change" from enamel diamond to solid red...its just a minimal difference in costs, and could have made great changes at the time of the dies.

X-Rays would be a great help and could bring with it a great and helpfull way to end up (in a way) with this dilema. There is always this feeling that maybe rivets werent necesary to "touch" and these diamonds were post-war glued there.

[RussellM]

I think all the knives shown above are perfectly fine. All late production. I'd be more concerned if I saw a mottoed example with one of these diamonds in the grip.

Bob's knife looks good to me. I've seen the strike mark on the rivet reverse of other knives that are totally correct in every way. Main thing is, there is no damage to the grip plates where the rivets are set. Also remember, these are late production pieces, with not so much care and attention given to the earlier manufactured knives.

I don't think we'll ever know why the change in pattern emerged - my best guess is that a different manufacturer may have been appointed for some reason late in the period, say 1941.

Regards
Russell

[bobcam1]

Was there any kind of a labor-intensive or cost difference between pouring the glass into the diamond, and pouring simple enamel into it? Were the dies pretty much the same, but only the filler material different?
If so, wouldn't this explain the difference, as many late-war shortcuts were taken, due to time and cost?
I am a total neophyte when it comes to these knives, and I've learned a lot from this thread, alone, so....keep the info coming, my friends...

Thanks,
Bob.

[evilmike]

if these solid red diamonds were appearing on the knifes, are any examples known as pins or cap badges etc??

[evilmike]

[evilmike]

pics from the hj pins thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=209908