Question about numbered (serialized) SS daggers

[Panzer Rob]

Hi guys-

In another thread on serialized SS daggers, I noticed quite a bit of variety between the type and size of the font as well as the placement of the number, and so I would like to get a better idea of how and when these numbers were added.

Were SS numbers added by the recipient himself, or were some of daggers issued with the numbers already engraved? If it was done by the original recipient, how did one go about having the numbers added? I would imagine that taking into account how sacred these daggers were considered to be that there would have to be some sort of "approval process" to go through if any modifications were to be made.


Thanks in advance,
Rob

[Panzer Rob]

Anyone?
Thanks,
Rob

[JR.]

When the directive from Himmler came out in April 1934 that ordered the recipient of a Rohm Honor dagger to also retain a certificate for this edged weapon, it also stated that the owner of the dagger were to stamp his SS serial number on the reverse of the crossguard. Considering the difficulty of doing this on your own in the kitchen of your house, we see all sorts of attempts and haphazzard numbers on these daggers. From the beautiful jeweler engraved examples to some cartoon attempts, numbers were stamped to try to comply with Himmlers order. Considerning the short amount of time between this April directive and the Rohm purge just a few month later in June, most likely led to the confussion of if this order being complied with. I find normally less than 10% of the SS Rohm Honor Daggers stamped with the owners serial number. Even rarer is the certificate of ownership on these daggers. A huge break through on identifying non-officer numbers has just come to light recently, with the discovery of a huge list of NCO found at the National Archives. Up until the last couple of months, you could only trace these numbers if your number was to that of an officer in the DL.

[N.C. Wyeth]

I find normally less than 10% of the SS Rohm Honor Daggers stamped with the owners serial number. Even rarer is the certificate of ownership on these daggers. A huge break through on identifying non-officer numbers has just come to light recently, with the discovery of a huge list of NCO found at the National Archives. Up until the last couple of months, you could only trace these numbers if your number was to that of an officer in the DL.

Just the other day, the fellow that made this breakthrough has just identified the owner of one my serialized SS Rohm daggers - I will post more as information as he forwards it to me!

Brad

[JR.]

S1

[JR.]

S2

[JR.]

As you can see, it wasn't the easiest thing to do on your own...........

[Panzer Rob]

S2

JR-

Thanks for the info. That's a beautiful dagger with a very early SS number!
Have you been able to ID the original owner?

Thanks again,
Rob

[RaymondG]

Hi

Reading JR's comments, I imagine that it is somewhat difficult to tell if someone has not added a number to a dagger at a later date to increase the value. Without giving up too many hints to fakers, are the obvious telltale signs to look for.

I came across a chap the other day, when I was researching something non-dagger related, who has a database of around 50,000 SS men not featured in the DAL's.

I imagine that this could identify the original owners of many previously unresearched daggers. His website is www.ss-numbers.com, if anyone is interested. It may be of some help to dagger collectors out there.

Raymond

[JR.]

Raymond, email me and I'll send you an article on the information that you're looking for on numbers. JR j.meda@comcast.net

[Panzer Rob]

Hi

Reading JR's comments, I imagine that it is somewhat difficult to tell if someone has not added a number to a dagger at a later date to increase the value. Without giving up too many hints to fakers, are the obvious telltale signs to look for.

Raymond

Raymond-

Thanks for your reply

My thoughts exactly. I've noticed that there is a great deal of variation in the style/size of font, as well as the placement of the number, and as of now I have been unable to determine if there was a specific location where these numbers "should" be. I've seen a good number of numbered daggers with a great deal of variations posted here in various threads over the last few years, yet none that I can remember have had their originality "questioned" and without any other information, this would lead me to believe that the numbers were just added by the original recipients.

If they were added individually then I could understand the variations, but if it was a directive issued by Himmler himself, then I would expect to see very little variation in the font and placement of the number.

Are there any examples anyone can point me to that could be considered "textbook" or "correct" ? I've seen quite a few with the same font as the beauty JR posted in the same location (or on the front of the cross guard) that - to me anyway - look "right" but then there are some that are, well...

Thanks in advance,
Rob

[N.C. Wyeth]

My Rohm SS has it's numbers placed in the same location as JR's.

I've always been curious about the reasoning behind some numbering being placed on the faces of the crossguard, and some of the numbering behind placed on the underside of the crossguard. It would be much easier for a series of numbers to be stamped on the side of the guard vs. the underside . . . . even today. Maybe the side-numbering was performed by the owner at the time of the ordinance, and the underside-numbering was performed at the time of assembly? One thing is for sure; it must have been a very serious task to place numbers that defined and deeply imbedded into the crossguards!

Brad

[N.C. Wyeth]

Now you have me curious . . . . I'm going to have to check the location of the numbers on some of my other specimens!

Brad

[JR.]

The numbering directive from Himmler left out the important information on specifically; how, by whom, where, what size, etc these number were to be stamped. That is exactly why we see such a hodge podge array of cobbled nunbers on the crossguards of some Rohm daggers. Within 60 days of the order to number your Rohm SS Honor dagger being issued, the Rohm purge happened! Then what ??? For the most part the numbering was probably not necessary because the order to NOW grind your Rohm Honor Dagger was issued. Now it wasn't a Rohm Honor Dagger anymore.

[JR.]

You can bet that not any of the Solingen craftsmen at the firms that Himmler issued the contracts to manufactured the M33 SS Rohm, ever pounded a set of these crude numbers that we sometimes encounter.