Need help on Police Sword

[usmcaviator]

I am trying to get smart here. This is one of many blades that I obtained in an ad. I see these advertised as "police officer swords" and "SS/Police officer swords". Can someone please tell me what makes the difference. Is it the rune markings? This has runes within a diamond on the blade under the maker name. Does that make it SS/Police? It has no other rune stampings on the throat of the scabbard or the crossguard.

Thanks,
Mike

[usmcaviator]

[james m]

What you have is a police officers sword by Hermann Rath who was a distributor and not a manufacturer. The SS runes on one of these is usually believed to imply dual membership in the SS and the police. If you decide to sell it let me know.
Jim

[SwordFish]

The runes are basically an inspection stamp or proofing. Beyond that, it has nothing to do with the SS. Nice score.

[usmcaviator]

I am trying to follow here... the runes are an inspection stamp ensuring quality or something, but by whom? The SS, or SS quality control? You say the sword has nothing to do with the SS, beyond the stamp? I am sorry, but I do not understand. The sword is what collector's refer to as SS Police then, correct?

Thanks,
Mike

[pvluger]

I agree with Jim; it generally implies dual membership. The police force worked extremely close with the SS. Himmler, being head of all police, absolutely had a massive amount of SS members generally working in the police force not to mention at the very least several SS police combat units on the eastern front. IMO, this is a SS Police sword and has as much to do with the SS as any SS sword would.


Very nice, by the way!

[usmcaviator]

I agree with Jim; it generally implies dual membership. The police force worked extremely close with the SS. Himmler, being head of all police, absolutely had a massive amount of SS members generally working in the police force not to mention at the very least several SS police combat units on the eastern front. IMO, this is an SS Police sword and has as much to do with the SS as any SS sword would.


Very nice, by the way!

Thanks!

[SwordFish]

I'm not sure that is generally the case. I'm going to look into it further and see if i can come up with a better answer. Wait for others to chime in.

To assume that a police degen that has runes implies dual membership is a broad statement that I would not emphatically agree with. Often, the runes are found on the scabbard throat and under the crossguard as a proofing so to speak. Yes, it's true that some police officers had membership in the SS, similiar to Heer officers with membership in the police force.

Again, Im going to look into it and see what I can find. My feeling though is that becuase a degen has runes it doesn't always imply joint membership. Degens are not my special area of interest. I could be incorrect on this. We'll find out.

Either way, a beautiful degen to be proud of. I'd love to have her in my collection. I believe Herm Rath is a distributer. I have a nice Puma Heer sabel with Herm Rath etched into the spine of the blade. Can anyone shed light on possible maker? Perhaps ACS, Eickhorn, or Krebs? Just some gueses.
Just my $.02

[SwordFish]

Additionall, here are some links worth reading.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/7090084472?r=7090084472#7090084472
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http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/8630031613?r=3070081613#3070081613
<O></O>

Here is an explanation from Fred Prinz- one of the sword collector moderators at the "other" forum.
"I think that the SS stamped markings on the WKC/Rath swords are just variations on a theme, of the markings seen on other swords, the daggers, and the "SS" marked Allach/other ceramics. All of the (SS) markings are not identical with very noticeable differences between some of them, which I think ties in with Grumpy's idea of alternate forms of markings.

In TW's "SS" book he waffles a bit I think on what to call the markings. In the book he still maintains that it was the personal trademark of Karl Diebitsch, but apparently covers his bets by also stating in other places that it is a "proof stamp" which I think is better than some of the descriptions of it that I have seen in the past. However, still the only authoritative period information/reference that I have ever seen is the valuable information provided by Joe Wotka. He stated that in a 1938 German Police publication that manufacture of the swords was under SS control, and that the SS "Kulturzeichen" (Culture Mark) marking was on the lower part of the blade next to the maker's trademark.

Like almost everything German from that era there are exceptions, but the great bulk of the markings on the SS edged weapons were post production. SS swords made at Dachau don't have the marks. The ones made at Solingen do. Besides the Dachau SS swords, it's the more or less 50/50 split in German Police swords that I think proves the point that the marking was not Karl Diebitsch's personal hallmark. Conversely, I think the differences do make a much better case for the marks being de facto acceptance marks for items acquired by the SS - for sale or distribution through whatever channels they used. And that the non-acceptance marked police swords were sold through commercial channels with no (financial) benefit to the SS itself.

And that at 'the end of the day' the use of the different types of SS marks on edged weapons is indicative of nothing more than different acceptance inspectors/personnel and/or policies in effect at the factories or reception points after the swords were completed and became SS stores to be sold or distributed. And that some of the types of markings were time sensitive as well"

[SwordFish]

"Gratis/gifted SS swords without the markings (like the swords from Dachau) did not not need the Kulturzeichen - whereas items like the various SS and some police blades from Solingen (with the "SS" markings) did. And it was the sale of things like the M1936 daggers and the SS marked police swords from Solingen (and ceramics from Dachau etc.) which helped fund the gifts and also allowed the SS to expand as an organization which was Himmler's ultimate goal"

Hit the links I provided. Again, from my understanding, I would not automically assume dual membership becuase of the runes inspection marking.

[usmcaviator]

Swordfish,
Wow thanks! That's the kind of answer and discussion I was looking for. Thanks much posting that informative piece. It all makes sense to me, that some have it and some dont do to policies and acquisition channels in effect at the time, and doesnt necessarily mean that the sword is truly "SS". Only the piece knows whether it was owned by a SS policeman, and it isn't talking to me about it!

Thanks again,

Mike

[pvluger]

Good idea swordfish...I will consult the books to double check and to not mislead here just in case. Are we in agreement that the collector term "SS police sword" is correctly applied, or do you feel it is vague?

[pvluger]

Mike, hey at least you know that there is SS relation!

[pvluger]

Ok Mike,
I consulted the SS Bible, Apparently the only way would be able to tell that this sword belong to a policeman with dual membership is it would've retained its portapee. That would've been a dead giveaway(Wittmann, p480) The good news is that Hermann Rath is listed as known producer#13 of the "SS-Police Degen" (Wittman, P.479. After the SS takeover of the general police in 1936. Himmler personally oversaw, dictated, and controlled the production of the SS-Police Degen. The restricted nature of the production of the SS-Police degen can be found supposedly on RFSS Himmler's captured records. If a member of the SS and police simultaneaously, and met the requirements to wear the SS-officer degen, then that degen was worn. If that SS Mann had not met the requirement for the SS-officer degen, then the SS-Police degen was worn with SS portapee. As far as we can tell, at least the production of this peice was definitely under SS control.

If it only had a portapee....

[SwordFish]

I would avoid the term SS police degen. No such saber is documented to exist to the best of my knowledge. I mean in terms of deliniation as such for dual membership. Granted, the police were at a point under total control of the SS. So in that regard, there is a connection. As you see, many items were proffed and "inspected" by the SS to meet certain demands. It is a standard police officer degen, dist. by Rath, with the sigrune SS approval mark.

Police Officer Degen would be the best description. A nice one at that, and probably a little difficult to find with those particular markings.

T