Opinions on this ss degen please

[Dreherstein]

Hello, Im looking for advice concerning this WKC ss degen that I am looking to buy.
Thank you for any direction and advice you can give.


http://members.cox.net/ldreher/ssoffsword.JPG

Family is asking 2000

[Bob T]

I am not an expert so I can not testify as to authenticity but it looks nice. How much is the owner asking?

[Seiler]

To the best of my knowledge WKC is not a maker of recognised SS
Officer degens.
Nor is the ricasso stamped with the runes.
Also dont like the position of the grip runes. Not for me.
Seiler.

[SwordFish]

Look how thick that blade buffer is. Secondly, the runes on the blade. Not good. Watch out for this one.

[Dreherstein]

WKC Catalog

The WKC catalog in Johnsons book says next to the pictures of the Police swords that they can be ordered with the rune circle.

[Dreherstein]

Runes on blade

Wkc was the only one that had the runes on the blade and because of that did not have them on the crossguard or throat. So what is it about the rune button, is there something with it? Please your opinions matter, I have done and asked a lot of people, but I need your thoughts.

[Doug Kenwright]

Well, the scabbard is actually a police scabbard as the lower fitting is held on by two screws..SS officer scabbard lower fittings do not feature these two screws and are a press fit...

q: could this be as stated, a WKC police officer sword with the optional runes in the grip?


also, police grips had matt aluminum wire wrap, the SS grip featured polished silver wire..the wire in the pics looks matt aluminum..

[SwordFish]

Doug,
Good information. Looking closer at the runes button, you can see what looks to be a recess on the sides that would have accommodated the police buttons eagle wings. As most of you know, alot of folks have embelished police degens with the runes button to increase the value. Boom, instand SS degen! I still dont like the runes stamp on the blade. Just my humble opinion.

[Doug Kenwright]

Swordfish..yes, i see what you mean..wire just ends suddenly..i'm also not too keen on how the SS stamp has clarity, but the WKC logo has lost a lot of definition from polishing..lots of question marks on this..

[Dreherstein]

Thought on this WKC and your comments

Hello and thank you for the comments and opinions. Those of you that have the Johnson volume II book please look at page 139. There are two police swords pictured and in the lower right is the statement concerning that the swords may be purchased with Runes. Yes I understand this is not a stated fact in the Wittmann ss book, go figure. What I believe happened with the WKC and other private/non-Dachau produced SS degens is they are police with the rune button added at the factory or perhaps a wiser statement would be they are a like sword cross boundaries. Would not find it hard to believe the practical German would realize that manufacturing is best accomplish with like parts used cross many products. A factor of their whole war time thinking. What this means is the officer scabbard has screws in the lower fitting, may or may not have runes on the throat or guard, and may have ALL the features of a police but with the rune button. This sword has not been apart. I to have questions. I noticed the low spot on the end side that may or may not be the cut for a wing of police eagle. I am planning on disassembling the sword and if any one is interested, I will share pictures and findings. I think what is going to be seen is WKC sold swords of a degen style. The only difference is whether it has the eagle or the button. Wire, screws, everything is the same but for that. However, I am planning on extensively studying the construction as to fit, hollowing for the button, what is under the face. I believe this will be a learning experience and one to approach from a practitioners mind.

Thank you for your time and comments.

[buckle1]

I have never been into the 3rd Reich swords to any degree but was a long time collector of 3rd Reich daggers, badges and buckles. I learned a long time ago that when red flags start to come up on any item you better beware. When this many questions are asked and answered w/other questions, look out. And finally when you begin to make up excuses as to why this sword could be good then I think you need to take a big step back and re-think your decision. $2000.00 is a lot of money to spend on "I think it is good". Additionally, down the road if you ever decide to sell the degen, do you really want to have to go through this type of exersize with potentail buyers? Just some thoughts.

Bill

[Daggerob]

I'll have to go along with Bill's point of view.
I'm a dagger guy myself, and what he says holds true.
Better to have pieces that most collectors recognize as classic examples.
"Inside the box", so to speak. Especially concerning something that you are "looking to buy".
It's not as if you found it in Grandad's attic.
Why CHOOSE to spend a large some of money on an item that requires long winded explainations and excuses to justify numerous anomalies.
Even if you plan never to sell, one never knows what the future might bring.
That's just my opinion.

[Tiger 1]

The degen looks to be a police sword with the grip replaced or modified to mimic a SS degen.

The markings on the blade are correct for a WKC police sword. The scabbard, likewise has the two screws holding the lower scabbard piece in place as is correct for a police degen.

One crucial fact to keep in mind is that the SS degen was an award, with an urkunde presented to the recipient from Himmler.

Not all SS officer's pocessed one. Nor could anyone just 'order', buy and wear an SS degen as he pleased. Just as one could not wear a military decoration that was not rightly presented. The award of the SS degen was listed in the SS rankliste along with another SS award, the Honor Ring. They could not be bought but were given by Himmler. This is fact and all other speculation is pretty much irrelavant.

IMO this piece is a put together or modified from a genuine WKC police degen.

All the best,

Tony

P.S. The SS runes button refered to in Johnson were runes available on the pommel top and not the grip. The grip would still have the standard police eagle on the side.