How many estimated SS Rohm and SS Himmler were made?

[Nakida]

How many estimated SS Rohm and SS Himmler were produced?

Wittmann says 9900 SS Röhm and maybe 2500 SS Himmler.
Any different opinions or thoughts?

Sam,

[Larry Lipps]

Any number would at best be a wild guess.

[Wizard]

I agree with those numbers.

[Anthony Evans]

2500 himmler or 250?

[John Huff]

I've always noticed quite a few legitimate looking ground SA Rohm's around. I think many more were produced thanoriginally thought. Just MO

[Larry Lipps]

Anthony, I think the prevailing opinion is that at least 2500 were produced. After reading Max Gallo's book, The Night of Long Knives and hearing just how many people "disappeared" that night, I wouldn't be surprised if the number wasn't somewhat higher if everyone involved actually qualified.

[Wizard]

Besides giving them out for the "Kristallnacht" (sp?), Himmler also gave them out to whomever he wanted, up until the end of the war. In my opinion, I think they were a cheaper alternative to the damascus SS Honor dagger.

Being as many as there are, with most of the Himmler daggers carefully preserved and stored by its owners, it's not surprising that most of them are in near mint condition. What is surprising is the going price for those things.

[Nakida]

With all respect to Wittman's and Johnson's amazing books, also Fisher's references.
These books and references are filled with great useful information and it's almost impossible for most collectors to live without these references.

There is just a problem with books which make this hobby so interesting.
New information and knowledge show up from year to year and what we thought was correct info today can be changed tomorrow.
Books and references are not updated that quickly and that's why I'm asked for different opinions and thoughts regarding SS Röhm and SS Himmler.

Thanks Gentlemen for your answers and opinions,

Sam,

[Nakida]

Anthony, I think the prevailing opinion is that at least 2500 were produced. After reading Max Gallo's book, The Night of Long Knives and hearing just how many people "disappeared" that night, I wouldn't be surprised if the number wasn't somewhat higher if everyone involved actually qualified.

Interesting point Larry, and this show how important it is to read not only dagger references but also good history factbooks like the one you mention by Max Gallo.

Another very informative book is: The Order of the Death's Head: The story of Hitler's SS, by Heinz Höhne


Best,

Sam,

[Ron Weinand]

The Numbers

After working with SS serial numbers, dates of entry and SS Rohm Daggers, I am convinced that the estimate of SS Rohms produced is just way too low. When you find SS M33 Daggers ground, with partial inscriptions and full Rohms directly from the veterans with serial numbers into the 100,000, it is just impossible to believe that it was only distributed with the numbers quoted. Maybe the 9900 quoted in original documents was just officers, not all members.
As I work with the SS Dienstaltersliste for the past 25 years, I have found that date of entry into the party or the SS must have been the determining factor, just as with the SA for Rohm Daggers.
I believe that the date of March 1933 is the date to determine the award of this dagger. Also, those in other services on this date (HJ, DJ, SA, etc.) would make them SS qualified and then able to receive a Himmler also.
Just too many originals to believe the quoted numbers, but we will probably never know unless someone going through the tons of documents in the different centers stumbles across one unknown today.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
SS Officer Research Service

[Nakida]

After working with SS serial numbers, dates of entry and SS Rohm Daggers, I am convinced that the estimate of SS Rohms produced is just way too low. When you find SS M33 Daggers ground, with partial inscriptions and full Rohms directly from the veterans with serial numbers into the 100,000, it is just impossible to believe that it was only distributed with the numbers quoted. Maybe the 9900 quoted in original documents was just officers, not all members.
As I work with the SS Dienstaltersliste for the past 25 years, I have found that date of entry into the party or the SS must have been the determining factor, just as with the SA for Rohm Daggers.
I believe that the date of March 1933 is the date to determine the award of this dagger. Also, those in other services on this date (HJ, DJ, SA, etc.) would make them SS qualified and then able to receive a Himmler also.
Just too many originals to believe the quoted numbers, but we will probably never know unless someone going through the tons of documents in the different centers stumbles across one unknown today.
JMO
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
SS Officer Research Service

very interesting input Ron! Thanks!
But as you say, we will probably never know for sure.

Best,

Sam,

[Wizard]

As I work with the SS Dienstaltersliste for the past 25 years, I have found that date of entry into the party or the SS must have been the determining factor, just as with the SA for Rohm Daggers.

Mr. Weinand, I have a question about the issuance of SS numbers. Suppose two new recruits, from two different towns far apart, joins up simultaneously. Would they get subsequent SS numbers from a central office, or each recruiting district would be allocated a sequence of numbers?