What is the best solution to protect blades

[Brian S]

I saw on a PBS show they were talking about wood antique furniture. They said no oils, use wax. Use a high grade wax. The wax seals, oil fills.

[jaeger_45056]

I saw on a PBS show they were talking about wood antique furniture. They said no oils, use wax. Use a high grade wax. The wax seals, oil fills.

I have been told by people that oil will cause the laminate glue to break down in k98 stocks. Ive also heard that using waxes on leather will cause the fibers in the leather to come apart. Its very frustrating at times to actually figure out what the best way to preserve these items is. Some say its best to just leave it alone, but then again not everyone has a temperature controlled vault.

[Brian S]

I did not say wax on leather! I'm NOT sure about leather. My dad always used I think it's called NEET and he's been gone a few years and his old stuff looks good today. He used it on leather that had literally gone stiff and worked it in over a day here and a day there until it became supple again. Of course the color got darker.

But I wouldn't put anything on dagger scabbards with coloring. I think we're screwed there unless there's a sealer to seal in the moisture that's there today.

If you don't have a safe you can create your own room or closet with controlled moisture. It's the up and down of moisture and temperature that's killing our stuff. And of course light, ultra violet rays, which also come from flourescent bulbs.

Honestly, this is why I've never wanted to collect the cloth items.

So to conclude: Put all your stuff in a dark, humidity controlled environment, never touch them without gloves. Go into the room/safe with cotton gloves, a soft red/blue 15 watt bulb and hold your breath to control humidity. That should guarantee them for another 100 years with no discernable aging.

[Sal Williams]

Hi Guys, What are GD.c ers? I like to have my daggers out and laying about(not that I have a lot or any particularly special ones) and I live right by the beach with salt air and all. Are my daggers going to disinigrate quickly? I just want them to stay nice looking thru my lifetime much more than that I won't really care will I? I also like to take them out of the sheaths a lot to look at them. Will I regret this? What do I do???????????
Regards, Sal

[Colorado]

Hi Sal:

Welcome. GDers are members of Germandaggers.com, a site that orients towards daggers like here is oriented towards badges.

I live near the water too. If you have AC, you have no worrries. Others may disagree, but these sat in unairconditioned houses in Germany and the worst years are behind them. Many folks do not like to keep then in the scabbards to protect from moisture and runner marks. Don't worry about it, just inspect them periodically.

[Rich Moran]

Reading this thread with a lot of interest, as my business is centered around corrosion control. We service the US Military, and in that, have access to test reports that advise the highest degree of protection of metals within corrosive environments.

As pointed out, there are many roads to Rome, and the process of corrosion control done properly will net the same results.

Personally, I don't like spending a lot of time taking things apart, subject small screws to buggering, twisting metals that were originally put together at a factory that were meant to stay together.

Polishing with substances that have micro-fine grit over time will result in problems, specifically so for daggers such as a damascus blade, who in their right mind (left mind?) would subject a piece such as this to a polish paste or wax? This process may be fine for polished baldes from the factory that report nothing on a blade other than the finish grinding marks or polish marks, but even those over time are subject to problems if messed with to many times. Imagine a Honor dagger with its gold over the words with Semi-Chrome....YUKKKK. If you do not htink Semi-Chrome has no grit, try it on chrome and see what it does. it will scratch chrome like crazy.

I would not use silicone on a collectible blade, as silicones can and will cause problems. Documented proof in studies reported to NACE (National Association of Corrosion Engineers) and in their educational materials used by corrosion control engineers suggest that silicone may actually encourage corrosion.

This process has to do with a noble cell in metal called carbon. Carbon as a noble cell will cause the potential flow of electrons to a negative cell, and the result of this process is corrosion. Since carbon cannot be protected or shut off (diamonds are carbon based, hardest substance known) in this corrosion process, the metals that are around the carbon become the attracting cell for the electron flow. Silicone can and will expose carbon to oxygen, and indeed the assault on the good metals will begin. The result will be a "peppering" of the metal surfaces, as the breaks in the coating will cause a hyper-corrosion to occur, and in a short time, a beautiful blade will become one that appears to be grey, dull and old.

Corrosion is caused by the combination of several ores for tensile strength and ductibility. What occurs in molten mass, is the ores are combined under heat, poured into forms or is drawn and allowed to cool. As the metal cools, induction of moisture to the molecular level occurs. The combined ores is where the problem starts, moisture and oxygen is where the problem goes, and rust and corrosion is where the problem finishes.

These ores have sutble differences, and these differences can be found on a tech sheet that list metals from 1 to I believe about 100 or so names. At the start of the list, say 1 to 10, these metals have suttle differences, and only allow a minute amount of the flow of electrons accross the poles (anode and cathode or + and -, just like a battery). When the metals move further apart in their likeness at their structure, the rate of corrosion will increase. So if you were to look at the first listed metal, and say combine it with the 50th metal on the list, basically, the differences are enough in th eright condition to cause an ohm meter to read the flow of electrons, and the spent energy is rust and corrosion.

So, how does corrosion begin on something that has a lot of work done to it and when looked at with the naked eye, seems to be in mint or really great condition?

It starts with temperature fluctuations. If a metal is room temperature (clarify this to 72 degrees, cent.) and drops to say 60 degrees, cent., the metal will have slight condinsation, and this will not be felt or seen, but, at its molecular structure. If you use cleaning agents, the problem will increase, as now, H2O at base is 7 to 7.5 on the pH schedule. if you've used an akaline cleaner, say it is 10 in raw format before dilution (normal dilution of cleaning agents is suggested at a 20 to 1 ratio, 20 parts water, to 1 part cleaner, will result in a minut trace of akaline chemical the will settle to the molecules. Guess what you have now?

An alkaline bunny that keeps on going, and going, and going. Evry time your dagger experiences fluculation in temperature, up or down, the result is condinsation, and the end result is a fresh charge of an alkaline chemical at work on your 10 grand himmler or rohem dagger doing its stuff.

TERRIBLE THOUGHT, YES?

The above scenario is the same if using a mild acid base cleaner, and everyone is aware that acids eat metals, and guess what... SO DO ALKALINE CLEANERS, and if you are using a water based cleaner it ain't base, its either alkaline or acid. There is no such animal as a base cleaner either. If you think there is ask the manufacturer for their MSDS (material safety data sheet) and look for the reported pH of the chemical and you'd be floored.

Base simply means that you are using water alone, but think about this, if your water comes to you through pipes, what is the pH? if you think your pipes don't matter, here is one for you. The space shuttle Columbia fell apart because of pinholes in the tiles, and these are ceramic. Well, the structure that supports all the support equipment is galvanized, and rainfall that hit the structure splashed onto ceramic tiles, causing ceramic corrosion problems, whowoulda though!?!

Copper pipes, carbon pipes, metal pipes all influence pH. PVC does not. Ever seen PVC pipes below ground? No, your water comes to you through metal. Aquifiers also will influence the pH also, as the minerals in the earth cause this.

Back to cleaners.

There is a way to correct metals surfaces after cleaning with alkaline or acid cleaners, and that is to use the opposite chemical in a final flush. So if you use alkaline at say lets say a 9.5 on the pH (dillution at 20:1 you'd think would really drop the alkaline, but it does not) and you are calculating base at 7 pH, that means your rinse is 4.5 acid!! That will result in a neutral surface that is ready for protecting!!

Who wants to do all that??

So, short of testing everything, there are other ways to accomplish the mission.

Wince, those who said no oils....okay, how about VpCI? We will get to oil based inhibitors in a few.....but, how about Vapor phase Corrosion Inhibitors?

These are electrically charged particles, + and -. With electricty, opposites attract. When the charged inhibitor meets its opposite on the metal surface (metals have anodes and cathodes...remember the different metals? they are also charged too), the VpCI lies on the surface waiting for one or 2 things to do its work....oxygen or moisture. When these elements occur, the inhibitor converts from a crystal to a film. You can't see it, feel it or even wipe it away, but it is there. Tests conducted by the US Air Force for deep mothballing of AGES equipment (ground support gear for aircraft) reported a 100% protection from rust and corrosion.

This product is simple and easy to use, no mixing, pH tests etc. For those that display their blades in riker cases, VpCI's can be had in an emitter format, and these are simply inserted into your display case. They last 2 years, and you can open and close the case 10 times a day without causing the emitter to exhaust.

Emitters can be had in a size to protect up to 100 CU FT....gun safe size!! Were guys normally have those devices you gotta bake in your oven.... HEY, TRASH THOSE!!! Those things are antiques.

The VpCI is so effective that you can take a firearm and shoot a few rounds, put it into an area where the emitter is at without cleaning it, pull it out 2 years later and there will be ZERO DAMAGE. I do not recommend doing that, but, if you want you can. The reason i don't recommend it is that any weapon not properly maintained after firing is subject to some problems....unless it is a HK of course, another subject, another time...maybe.

The VpCI has to be in an area that is semi airtight, and in this area, I recommend change out annually. In air tight 2 years is the norm. The manufacturer for this product is called CORTEC and they can be sourced at CORTECVCI.COM.

So the emitter will work in curio cabinets, display cases, aluminum framed display cases seen at shows, wood cases with no effect to the wood (BTW, wood has acid in it, didja know...and sap will cause corrosion) and if youd like, there are also ziplock bags treated with VpCI, most folks might know these as blue bags, all related to CORTEC VpCI.

How do I know all of this?

We distribute these and initiated the tests for the Air Force and are privvy to these results. We have sold tons of these things to the hunters and sportsmen in Hawaii, and to collectors here also. I am not trying to run a commercial here, as we make our money in bulk sales, like wastewater treatment plants that experiences the gas from human waste that destroys computer components and electrical components left and right..until the emitters are used.

If anyone wants pricing, e-mail me at ricmoran(no_spam_)@aol.com removing the no_spam_, or better, go directly to CORTEC on the web to see who sells these in your area. This info is soley to help collectors defeat corrosion, plain and simple. The blue bags are available at an economical cost, as we have taken orders for those and use mail for the service. CORTEC sells these in 1,000 count or more, so finding these might be a little hard to do. The common size is 12" by 18" for the blue bag, which is good for blades.

Now, on to oil-based. There is an inhibitor known as CarWell CP-90. It is a petroleum-hydrocarbon based product that has been cleaned of all VOC's volitle organic compounds...some cause cancer and others are just nasty chemicals that are associated to doing things to wood, plastics etc) CarWells product CP-90, T-32 or Rust Cop all the same product with 3 trade names.

This inhibitor does its work by dispirtion of the inhibitor by its oil base. The inhibitor will actually lift moisture away from the metal at the molecular strucutre, and prevent further moisture from sitting on the ores. Apply Rust Cop, allow 48 hours to rest on the surface, wipe off. Good for about 12 to 18 months. Look for CarWell on the web at CarWell Rust protection.

Do not use, I repeat DO NOT USE W-D 40 for a protectant. WD-40 is great as a degreaser, and that is about it. The Tank and Automotive Command (TACOM) corrosion guys tell me they'd like to see it not used in the Army as it strips any protection away.

Using both in a combination for many years to protect weapons, medals, daggers, my Harley V-Rod, 92 Jimmy that has zero rust, and oh yea, we just completed 10,000 + pieces of Army equipment in the past couple years, the stuff works.

So the road to Rome has many paths, the thing is to choose one and do it, as with any of this, if you litter the highyway with good intentions, nothing positive will result.

Rich Moran AKA Honolulu Rich, not the one from NY

[Sal Williams]

Hi Rich, that was Quite a lesson! For my situation (by the beach and like to leave my daggers in thier scabbards and out for looking at) I suppose the rust cop product would be the way to go don't you think? Is that product only to be put on the blade or will it work on the other parts of the dagger and scabbard?
Thanks for all the info, Sal

[jaeger_45056]

Anyone else used RustCop or CP-90? I wonder if this is available at Bass Pro or the like.

[Brian S]

CP-90 is a product you can buy usually from car parts type sellers such as;

http://www.woodtechtooling.com/Evaporust/CP90/CP90.html

[Rich Moran]

Hi Rich, that was Quite a lesson! For my situation (by the beach and like to leave my daggers in thier scabbards and out for looking at) I suppose the rust cop product would be the way to go don't you think? Is that product only to be put on the blade or will it work on the other parts of the dagger and scabbard?
Thanks for all the info, Sal

Hi Sal,

Would not use it on the leather, but all metal parts you can expect good protection. If you purchase it in aerosol form, you can shoot a little bit into the scabbard and ove time the CP-90 will migrate to all the metals in the area it was applied to. For the emblems in the wood, I would use a q-tip to apply it with, as a small amount such as that poses no risk what so-ever to the wood. If you spray the complete grip, you may experience a deepening of the grip color, so be aware of that.

Brian, thanks for adding a link to the re-seller that is no doubt closer to your home base than me. The pictures cited on the Stewart-Stevenson MTV bumper came from the thousands we have treated for the Army.

Honolulu Rich

[Sal Williams]

Hi Sal,

Would not use it on the leather, but all metal parts you can expect good protection. If you purchase it in aerosol form, you can shoot a little bit into the scabbard and ove time the CP-90 will migrate to all the metals in the area it was applied to. For the emblems in the wood, I would use a q-tip to apply it with, as a small amount such as that poses no risk what so-ever to the wood. If you spray the complete grip, you may experience a deepening of the grip color, so be aware of that.

Brian, thanks for adding a link to the re-seller that is no doubt closer to your home base than me. The pictures cited on the Stewart-Stevenson MTV bumper came from the thousands we have treated for the Army.

Honolulu Rich

Thanks Rich, I will try it on my Luftwaffe dagger. I suppose I shouldnt put it on the white handle though.
Sal

[Theodor]

A great thread! But may ask, how about helmets? On many old helmets there is pleanty of metal to be protected - where the paint is scratched and worn off. But the mentioned chemicals, which of them are safe for the paint and the leather? /even if not applied directly to the leather, they will be more or less in contact with it, right?/.
So what will be the chemical good for helmets' preservation?

[Rich Moran]

A great thread! But may ask, how about helmets? On many old helmets there is pleanty of metal to be protected - where the paint is scratched and worn off. But the mentioned chemicals, which of them are safe for the paint and the leather? /even if not applied directly to the leather, they will be more or less in contact with it, right?/.
So what will be the chemical good for helmets' preservation?

Sal, Theodor,

Sal, on the luft dagger, no need to apply it to the grip. If I am not mistaken the cross guards are aluminum, and th eblade metal, so these compnents would benifit, if there are problems or expected problems there.

Theodor, helmets can be protected with the CP-90. I used this on a WWI US wardens helmet, metal only. The CP-90 will bond and then penetrate the coating to get to the metals. Exposed areas of course will result in immediate protection. However, to be sure there a no negative reactions, test a small area first to see what happens.

With the US WWi helmet I did, after about 6 to 7 months the coating returned to its original color and lost the deeper color that CP-90 appears to afford to these types of coatings. Testing small areas is the best bet. Around lether I would not apply anything to that, as most chemicals will end up with a negative result to the leather. A friend recently sold me a single decal re-furbed M-35. He applied a product called ballistol to the leather, and it made the leather go deep in color and gave it the wrong look. It is my belief that treating leather is not the right thing to do.

Rich

[Sal Williams]

Hi All,
Well I just got some of that CP-90 and I also ordered this stuff called evapo rust which I am scared to use. Has anyone heard of it? It is supposed to take the rust off and protect the metal.

On my Luft dagger I have a question. My greasy mitts have left the scabbard (along with the salty beach air) with a thin film of powdery rust. What is the least invasive or proper way to get that off before I put the CP-90 on it? There is also a spot of deeper rust on the blade that was there when I got it, should I try to clean that, and if so how, or should I just put CP-90 on top of it?

On my SA dagger I was wondering if the brown anodized scabbard can use CP-90 or not. There is no rust there yet, but its in nice shape so I don't want it to start! On the CP-90 bottle it says it will not harm painted parts etc. it only says not to use it on cadmium plated parts. Do any daggers use cad plating?

Thanks, Sal

[jaeger_45056]

Sal I think its probabally best to keep lubicrants/oil off of paint despite what it says on the bottle. If it were me I would just wipe it down with the CP-90 and not use any abbrasive technique for removing the rust.