I read the Kaltenbrunner sword thread with much interest. This thread is not about the sword but the importance of edgeweapon collectors expressing thier opinions and questioning authenticity. Should anyone have an item of great rarity, you might want to have someone provide documentation verifying authenticity on it who has no financial interest in the piece and is an expert. Just my opinion, so read and learn from the kaltenbrunner thread. Be advised that if your word and knowledge is as good as gold, and you put it in writing, be prepared many years later to back it up. We all know that fakes are out there, "experts" are fooled and when you have a financial interest in an item, you can easily overlook it's questionable areas. So for newer collectors and old timers too, collect items that are unquestionable, right as rain, no red flags, drop dead originals. You will then not have to make excuses for what you have when you are selling it! Just my opinion, happy new year to all! john c. jacobi
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Thank you John, for further commenting on the obvious. My other thread was closed very quickly to keep the 'peace'. Apparently an expert wasn't comfortable with the heat in the proverbial kitchen.
Your points are a very valid commentary on the dangers of depending on other folks to do your learning for you.
Some folks who mistakenly place their unconditional faith in "COAs" and other letters of documentation without doing their own homework can and sometimes do get burned. Unfortunately this can be very costly at times.
The same can be said for the various forums. They are great tools for the free and unhindered exchange of ideas. BUT, this valuable tool should not displace the personal pursuit of knowledge by the individual collector when buying something for their collection; or just to enhance the confidence in their own abilities to understand and believe what they see.
As in all dealings the sage advice of "Buyer Beware" is most aplicable when dealing with any collectable. Military related or otherwise. Be careful out there.
All the best.
A Most Happy and a Most Prosperous Happy New Year to all!
TonyAn opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.
"First ponder, then dare." von Moltke -
Very good advice! The problem with any COA is that hobby perceptions as to what is real or fake can change over time. What was accepted 20 years ago may not be accepted today (ask anyone with a die flawed S&L RK). I personally don't place any value on a COA, but buy strictly on the merits of the piece.Ignored Due To Invisibility.Comment
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John, Very well said!!!
If someone is going to take a position regarding a specific item they should be prepared to defend that position. If nothing else, any ensuing discussion will educate those who are just starting out in collecting - and perhaps allow them to avoid some of the many fake items that are now in circulation.
And as Tony and Larry pointed out, paperwork is no substitute for looking at the item itself. Using the knowledge that is available now - instead of relying on past opinions that might not have a factual basis. FPComment
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An excellent thread with sage advice. As a published author of an edged weapon history I can assure you that the old adage that the truth is always found in the latest edition of a book is quite true. Available information changes with time and what we thought we knew as "true" can change with more information. I was able to correct some mistakes in what had been thought as true in my book and the next fellow will be able to correct any mistakes in my work. That is what enquiry, and incidentally these internet forums, is all about. One should not rely only upon the research of others or on other people's opinions. An opinion is simply a best guess and sometimes those best guesses (as opposed to the broader wild-ass guesses [WAG] that we sometimes get when we ask for an opinion) are just that.
Research what you are buying. Go to primary sources such as Dienstalterliste or Order of Battle pages. Find out what similar items look like. Buy books!
Lastly, just like on Hill Street Blues... "Be careful out there."
George WheelerComment
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I am very disappointed in the "virtues" everyone here is haphazardly tossing around. The complete discussion AND investigation behind this entire thread has never truly been completed. No DEFINITIVE evidence has been officially posted here that officially or definitvely closes the ALL of the case arguments involved.
The original thread was cut short and ended way too soon in my opinion. I would have liked to have seen more concrete evidence in writing, not simple inuendo, accusations, and interpretations. The Moderator(s) could have done a better job to monitor the entire thread and let it continue under "cautionary" pretenses. I think we could all give the research more time UNBIASEDLY before we start standing on soapboxes and proclaiming omnipotence in knowledge. Lets all be forwardly scientific in our approach and put the entire controversy to rest by allowing all concrete evidence to be written here for all to view before we make prejudice judgemnets.
I have not seen the ending evidence yet in this drama, and I for one am very intetested in seeing that happen. I don't proclaim any authority in knowledge of SS militaria or edged weapons, but I sure do enjoy enjoy hearing the ENTIRE story behind an item BEFORE someone decides to pass judgement and end the entire discussion.
I patronize this Forum and many others to learn from - nothing more. When a Forum begins to "end" the continued investigation of this knowledge by abrubtly closing a thread like this one, it leads me to believe that alterior motives are at bay. Don't cut myself or others short of learning a few things on this Forum - it ruins the entire experience for us all, old or young.
BradComment
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Brad, I don’t have physical possession of the sword and can’t provide pictures or other physical evidence as regards the scabbard, the late hilt of indeterminate origin, or the blade. All of which were called into question at some point in the discussion. With the discussion IMO also halted before some of the underlying issues could be properly examined.
What is done is done. And absent any hard facts from that end of the discussion I believe that I can offer some information about Ernst Kaltenbrunner “the man”. And his career in the SS. I don’t know if you consider that “DEFINITIVE” evidence or not but here it is:
He joined the NSDAP October 18th 1930, and was assigned to the Staff of SS-Abschnitt VIII August 31st 1931. In June of 1932 he was made F******252;hrer of the SS Sturm in Linz being made an SS-Oberscharf******252;hrer in that year also. On September 25th 1932 he was made an SS-Sturmhauptf******252;hrer. As an SS-Sturmhauptf******252;hrer he was made F******252;hrer of SS-Standarte 37 on June 15th 1934. Staying in that post for one year until June 15th 1935. When he became the F******252;hrer of SS-Abschnitt VIII until March 12th 1938 (being promoted to a SS-Standartenf******252;hrer April 20th 1936, a SS-Oberf******252;hrer April 20th 1937, and SS-Brigadef******252;hrer March 12th 1938 along the way).
He was awarded the Ehrendegen des RF SS, but regrettably I don’t have a date for that.
The question that anyone looking at the sword from my perspective has to be asking (or IMO should be asking) is this: Why would Reichsf******252;hrer SS und Chef der Deutschen Polizei. Heinrich Himmler, specifically order and have presented to one of his subordinates - a special edition Damascus bladed Ehrendegen des RF SS - commemorating the temporary assignment when Kaltenbrunner was a junior grade regimental commander? A post that he only held for one year. Long before the Honor Swords were even invented.
Those are the facts as I know them along with a question: What are the chances of that happening during the Third Reich - when many SS officers were never even awarded the Honor Sword?? Most Respectfully, FPComment
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Frogprince,
That is exactly my point - there are still too many questions left unanswered for anyone to interject opinions that would truly define the authenticity of the item.
By abrubtly ending the thread, we only left more unanswered questions. That is what I am really disturbed about. The end authenticity of the item is inconsequential to me personally, I would just like to have seen a better approach from everyone involved in the discussion. The Forum should have worked a little harder to help uncover the true answers behind the sword, as well as should all of the contributors to the thread. Where was the genuine offer of assistance extended to Marvin? Why did everyone abstain from offering the often discussed "hands on" and "in person" review of the item in question?
I recall only one person offering that service to Marvin, and that person who forwarded the offer is a prominent member of another Forum, not the WAF! There are a lot of people in this hobby that could have shown a little more friendly assistance, and most of them are members here as well.
Frogprince, you have done an admirable job of reporting facts - that is what the Forum should be used for when authenticity is in question. Only until all of the concrete facts have been reported, should anyone begin to offer any form of biased opinion. Unfortunately it did not happen here. I anticipate that this will be a lesson we can all take into consideration again in the future. Just my humble opinion, and I would hope it is shared by many of the other contributing members and Moderators . . .
Brad
P.S. A small pat on the back for you Frogprince, in case you didn't feel it! The factual reports you and many others contribute are the reason I keep returning to the WAF when I'm "surfing"!
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FP,
This is exactly the kind of research that should be done on named items like this. The indisputable facts of a person's career should match up with the the material culture artifact.
A friend of mine recently secured a uniform grouping that was named to a Knight's Cross winner. He got the uniform from the family of the US veteran who brought the uniform back from Germany at the end of the war. He got the tunic (named), breeches, trousers, greatcoat, awards, etc. along with a picture of the GI modeling the uniform while still in Germany. The veteran's kids remembered playing with dad's war souveniers in the 1950s. The provinance was rock solid.
This was not enough for my friend though, so he sought to research the German Major. He hired a professional researcher (because as we know research in the German archives is a real pain in the rear) who got copies of his personnel file and a couple of photos. Not only did the file confirm the award of each and every medal that came with the uniform but told the circumstances of the awards in many instances. For instance, the gold wound badge was awarded for being wounded on over 12 separate occasions. This guy was in the thick of battle and seemingly a wound magnet. This research really nailed down the uniform grouping and provided great insight into the career of this German Major.
I collect US Civil War swords as well. If I want to verify a named, or presented, CW sword I send off to the National Archives for records. I look in the society pages of period local newspapers around the date of the presentation to try and find a mention of the event. I cross reference the fellow's rank and unit with the date to see if everything matches. I also tend to pay for the artifact and not the story. I will buy a named sword but I won't pay extra for an unresearched sword. If I am offered a named sword along with a folder of research documentation I will pay for more than just the standard price of the sword without the name. Otherwise, all you are really buying is the sword... not the story.Comment
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Brad, I do appreciate your outlook that folks should assist others when they come forward asking for assistance. In Marvin’s case he wanted to assist a friend of his who was interested in selling the ‘Kaltenbrunner’ sword, and asked for an approximate value acting in the behalf of his friend.
From there the discussion took a very unexpected turn - after some pictures were posted and the sword began to be looked at more closely. I personally am a very enthusiastic supporter of the “hands on” approach to collecting. While I have absolutely no problem providing an opinion with something that is where I happen to be at the moment - regrettably I’ve had to turn down offers to send me various items for a close look. Collecting is a hobby for me not a business. And I don’t want the hassles of being responsible for somebody else’s property, the packaging, the shipping, etc. etc.
Especially if I have a suspicion up front that the item in question is not a legitimate one. I don’t like to give bad news. But have encountered enough grossly misinformed or dishonest individuals in my time collecting that if I can help another collector I do so. Wishing that I had someone to guide me when I first started.
In the era of digital photos and the internet I have found that really good photos very often (while not as good as “hands on”) can provide enough information to make at least a fairly decent preliminary evaluation of an object. It’s not perfect, but the individual wanting the advice has no extra out of pocket expenses. And neither does the one giving the advice. And if after that you still want to get a more professional evaluation: I very much like John Jacobi’s advice to select someone who does not have a financial interest in the piece to evaluate it. Regards, FPComment
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Well said Brad. It was cut short for reasons that were not disclosed other than perhaps a former collector's reputation may have been tarnished by further investigation IMO. As for Houston Coates' statement that this piece has an interesting provenance dating back 50 years, then please disclose it or dont mention it if you're not willing to elaborate.Originally posted by Brad LongComment
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While everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and conspiracy theories are certainly much more interesting than the truth, the previous threads were closed for the simple reason that they were continuing without anything substantive being added to the discussion:
- It was apparent that Bob Moses has no intention of discussing the sword (or any militaria) here or elsewhere. I visited with him at the last S-O-S he attended. It was clear that he was selling off his collection and no longer had any interest in militaria.
- Houston Coates has made it abundantly clear that he will not discuss the sword with anyone other than the owner and would prefer to do that face to face.
Larry and I will leave this thread to those who wish to continue, but reserve the right "drop by" from time to time just to make sure things stay on track.
Best,
SkipComment
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Much better approach, Skipper . . . . kudos to you!
Brad
Originally posted by Skipper GreenwadeComment
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As someone with experience with SS Honor Degens (having owned one and examined many), and having owned 8 political damascus daggers (SS, SA, and NSKK), and having owned and studied many Tiger, Fredricus, and no-maker damascus, as well as post-war Paul Muller damascus (I have owned THE Goering Industrial Dagger, for example), let me offer some observations.
First, I would say that it is absolutely impossible to comment fairly on this sword unless a) the photos were much better, or b) one had it in-hand. It's just a limitation of this medium. We are free to speculate, but I would make no definitive comments without "a" or "b."
Second, this is by NO means a sword meant to even resemble an SS Honor Degen. Comparing it to one is not a useful excercise.
Third, if the sword IS real, it is probably a sword assembled after Kaltenbrunner was the leader of this particular unit, and perhaps given to him as a gift, either by fellow former-members of this unit, or more probably, by by Himmler on some event relating to this unit.
Fourth, I have seen both high-quality "fantasy" pieces, as well as low-quality one-off pieces that were 100% original.
I'd be very interested in viewing this sword, and if I thought it were real, in buying it. Yes, the lettering does present concerns to me, as does the construction of the hilt, as well as the side-strap engraving on the grip. However, I have owned, for example, a 3-line presentation damascus Luftwafffe sword with unshakable provenance, that had the dumbest looking hilt - made out of an aluminum type base-metal, and totally custom in nature.
I'd say best of luck to the owner. If I can be of help in any way, please feel free to contact me.Comment
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Skip i love that sentence! In collecting half the fun is hearing a good story for sure, whether or not a piece is correct....anyways hope to meet you at the next SOS! regards, john Now if I can convince frogprice to come that would be the best!@Originally posted by Skipper GreenwadeComment
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